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Emirates Airline chief executive wants more power from Boeing 777X engines

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The larger 777-9X may need more thrust to lift the maximum amount of payload during the hottest month in the Middle East, as higher temperatures weaken the power produced by the engines with a 132in-diameter front fan. (www.flightglobal.com) Mehr...

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Moviela
Ric Wernicke 1
The problem with water injection is the weight of the water. It would be counter productive to the goal of increasing thrust for higher take off payload capability.

The Indians also have a problem with high altitude airports and heat. They solve the problem by having the supers and heavies arrive and leave at night. Take-off is generally planned for the coolest part of the night. Very clever those Indians.
preacher1
preacher1 2
Where did I miss the WATER INJECTION part?
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Some of the articles about this major order mention the request for higher thrust by the middle east carriers, so that they can takeoff fully loaded midsummer in their hottest month (August) when temps get to 120.

There was an article squawked about that issue in particular, but it may have been consolidated, since there were so many squawked in the past 2 days about the megaoreder and the show in Dubai.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
The one article about the thrust issue and some others reported that GE had proposed getting higher thrust in particular situations with water injection technology like were used on plane turbines earlier on, and still used widely in industrial turbine engines.

Apparently the carriers in question seemed to reject that approach.
johndanzy
John Danzy 0
"Those Indians" don't have anything close the number of aircraft and passenger operations. Forget all the other Mid East operators, do you really think just Emirates alone could have all their flights depart at night? How would this affect their entire network and flight scheduling? And what you're forgetting is that Emirates and other mid east buyers are buying the bulk of these planes so they, from a business perspective, have the leverage and rights to request options/changes.

You didn't think this one through, did you? Not very clever.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
"The demand by Emirates – possibly, the biggest customer for the 777X programme – could put Boeing and GE in a difficult spot with other customers who do not need the higher thrust ratings needed only at a few airports for about a month a year."

Those pesky hot desert summer days.

The additional cost of optimizing the specs for the Middle East airports' hottest summer month (August) is a cost that will be borne by all non-ME airlines as a tax in favor of the Middle East carriers for the life of the aircraft.
bentwing60
bentwing60 3
Not necessarily, give them an engine choice, and let them pay for it! Been done before.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Would be easier and cheaper if every engine coming off the line was identical. But you're right, they could do that, and offer a choice. There's still a cost to offering engine variants. Emirates is ordering so many planes, so early on that with their early bird discounts, they won't be the ones paying the extra cost.
bentwing60
bentwing60 0
Lockheed's last commercial airliner, the L1011, was much ballyhooed as the tech winner of the McDonnell Douglas DC10, L1011 battle for large three engine inter continental airliner sales. The unwavering commitment, (no place else to go that late in the game), to Rolls and the much delayed RB-211 engine program allowed MD to capture much of the market, and allowed Lockheed to quietly retire from the airliner bidness. After that debacle, if memory serves me correctly, airframers began to offer engine manufacturer options to customers, I.E. GE, Pratt, Rolls, et.al. Not quite so much the case today, I suspect, but engine manufacturers typically offer different thrust ratings on variant engines of a common core. As opposed to Obamacare, with respect to aircraft engines, one size does not fit all. Especially true in GA, witness the TFE 731 program. Or the PT6 from P.W. And I'd bet my bottom dollar Emirates will never take possession of all of those airframes! You can pay my widow.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
'pay my widow'

LOL your dry humor is so matter of fact.

That may have been te mist humorous statement of the day, but the most interesting is the one preceding it.

'Emirates will never take possession of all those airframes.'

The 777Xs, the A380s, or the whole lot of them. I seem to think that the orders may be a bit exagerated. Can you explain your certainty that the orders will not all be delivered.
bentwing60
bentwing60 1
I offered the wager, as my faith in the statement, not a certain assurance. Let's say my skepticism is innate.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Is it likely that Emirates would make all these extravagant orders with Boeing and Airbus for so many of their largest airliners, and just squelch on taking the orders.

What future issues could. Most contribute toward their inability to take delivery of all these aircraft.


The 777X on order seem to be mostly replacement aircraft for the current largest 777 fleet. The A380 are a play at solid growth of their business.

Scarier than Emirates not taking all those planes, would be for them to take delivery of all planes ordered (including the options) and filling them all up. That could be other major long haul international carriers' worst nightmare.
preacher1
preacher1 1
You know, this is kinda off the wall as far as the discussion above goes but then again, maybe not. This was the first time in 20 years that the U.S. produced more oil than it imported. As the Bakken fields and others develop, if that overseas export market starts drying up and they try to make it up on their airline brethren over there, paying higher fuel, they might not be so quick on the draw to expand. Just sayin'
bentwing60
bentwing60 1
Not off the wall at all. I see the continued $100.00, (100+ for Brent) price of a barrel of oil as major incentive for the continued exploration and production overall, and not, primarily in the middle eastern region. Something about politics. Increased supply will eventually throttle the seemingly never ending petro-dollar spigot to that region. If we could keep the speculators at bay, we might still see the kings and princes riding around in A380's, but they will probably lose some interest subsidizing everybody else riding around in one.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Some time back, one of the Saudi princes mad a comment that his grandfather rode a camel and that his grandson probably would too. They are not foolish and know that one day, it will all end. I see those oil trains coming down thru here everyday and they want do anything but increase in frequency. That is one thing we were doing earlier in the year up in ND, tying a bunch of smaller producers together to hit a pipeline/railhead. You can now see it paying off.
johndanzy
John Danzy 0
Tax??? Go back to your tea party rally. Emirates is by far the biggest customer of the plane and if they want a change to the airplane I think they have the bargaining power.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
I agree that they can push the specs of the aircraft to fit their needs.

Buy all I say is that a plane optimized to fly full loads on hot summer days in the middle east summer, may not be optimized for everyone else.

Even if you add only a quarter ton of extra weight between the 2 engines to make them large enough to hit the thrust numbers demanded by the ME carriers means that every plane of every carrier will have that extra engine weight. The example holds up even if each engine only adds an extra sixteenth of a ton or thirty secondths of a ton per engine. That extra weight is carried by all and paid for by all.

Maybe offering engine variants is a valid option. Buy the extra engineering and production costs of creating and building variants will be borne by all purchasers of the plane. [At least by all carriers who also buy engines. :) ]

Having engine variants also has a logistical and maintenance cost. Pre-positioned engines will be useful for fewer planes. The chance of having a compatible engine available for replacement is divided by the number of splintering in engine variants.

Costs go up by the number of different engines that must be simultaneously built and then have parts made and available for the useful life of the engines. Costs go down, if instead of making lots of different engines, be able to reuse the sane engines on different models. Eg. if able to use the same engine for 773ER and 772LR, and/or be able to offer the same engine across several manufacturers similar sized planes (Embraer, Canadair, Comair, Airbus, Boeing).

If the word tax, taxes you so without getting bent out of shape, you might need some pharmacological help to get you through the day. But if you didn't know, tax can be used appropriately in association with an additional burden or cost added to a product for whatever reason such as a modification.

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