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Cargo Plane Crashes into Terrain outside San Juan

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Prayers be with the families of those who were lost! (www.ksdk.com) Mehr...

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atcssct
Kevin Ford 4
A Metroliner is not a jet. RIP.
sparkie624
sparkie624 -3
RIP - But I have to correct you. The metro liner is a jet. Please note the following from Wikipedia.

"The Fairchild Swearingen Metroliner or the Fairchild Aerospace Metro is a 19-seat, pressurised, twin turboprop airliner first produced by Swearingen Aircraft and later by Fairchild at a plant in San Antonio, Texas, United States."

A Turbo Prop is a Jet Engine with a BIG FAN that is not encased, more commonly know as a Prop.

A modern day Jet Engine has LOTS of little Props in cased in a cowl.

Saying this is not a Jet is totally in accurate. It is a Turbo Prop Jet where the CRJ's, ERJ's, Boeings are all Turbo Fan... But they are all Jets.
ATCguy1
ATCguy1 2
Please note the following from the FAA order 7110.65U (the controller handbook): Fairchild Metro, SW4, 2T/S+. The 2T stands for twin turboprop. If it was a jet, it would be labeled as 2J.
sparkie624
sparkie624 -3
Turbo Prop is still a JET a/c. In most cases much slower and doesn't fly as high, but none the less it is still a jet a/c.

[This poster has been suspended.]

sparkie624
sparkie624 -2
Read my comment just a little further down. The big fans do most of the work. Not the engine... A 777's fan puts out 90% of the thrust while the engine only produces 10 percent of the thrust.

[This poster has been suspended.]

onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 2
Sparkie....you could have saved yourself some time and a headache by just asking "if a turbo prop is not a jet then why does it use jet fuel?"...it is really the combination of the two....having this argument is like having the debate of whether or not a cessna 320 is a turbo-prop....I know what you are saying though
bennettgaryw
Gary Bennett 2
Not to cause more problems but the new 182 diesel burns Jet fuel and I know its not a jet!!!
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
This is getting way out of hand... walk up to the new 182 and spin the prop... You will note that it is very difficult to turn over by hand... Then go to a turbo prop and you can spin it over with 1 finger. You are comparing apples and oranges.
preacher1
preacher1 2
You are the one that started it. When folks talk about type of plane they talk about just that, the nomenclature of the aircraft, not really getting into the technical aspects of the engine. For the civilized world, people will speak of a jet or a turboprop, and not really get into the technicalities of what is driving it. You cannot change the entire aviation community or the world for that matter, regardless of how right you may be.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
anybody that climbs into the business end of a plane or helicopter better know darn good and well what is powering it and the operating characteristics; not just what type of fuel it takes....lol
preacher1
preacher1 1
yeah, buddy. LOL
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
You are exactly right... So many people have crashed because they put in the wrong fuel just because of the way a plane looks. I saw a guy one time putting Jet A into a Piper Turbo Arrow... I said something to the fueler and his answer was. This is the correct fuel... It says TURBO on the side... I did not allow the pilot to take that plane as he did not witness the fueling.

It used to be that you could always tell fuel for an a/c by feeling the prop if you were not 100 percent sure... But with the new Cessna Diesel, that is no longer a valid test...
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
all Sparkie is saying is that a metro and any other jet-prop uses a jet engine.....that is apples and oranges, with that being said Jet and diesel are close but not the same....kerosene is a little bit closer to jet.
bennettgaryw
Gary Bennett 1
The 182 burns Jet-A
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
The differences between Jet Fuel and Diesel fuel is simple.

Diesel fuel has dye added to it to identify it for TAX purposes because a lot of truck drivers used to substitute home heating oil which is the same product but has less taxes.

Jet A is simply Diesel fuel with a higher level of filtering because Jet Engines cannot tolerate as much impurities.

Basically Jet Fuel and Diesel Fuel is the same product. Just because a Truck uses Diesel Fuel, does not mean it is powered by a jet engine.
preacher1
preacher1 2
Actually, you are not quite right. The diesel that has the dye is for road use as you say but the non dyed fuel is identical and is simply classified as off road, used in construction and farming, among others. #1 diesel is a lot closer to both Jet A and kerosene but it is much lighter without the internal lubricants. I don't know why they were even offering it but while I had the truck line, I had a dummy driver fill up with #1 one night. mx director had him put a gallon of oil in each tank and then burn off about 1/2 of it, do it again and fill with #2 regular diesel. It saved an engine
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
You are correct. I stand corrected.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
I know that but it is a diesel engine not a jet or turbine engine.....diesel doesn't burn clean enough and is actually some quit nasty stuff.....like I said diesel and jet or fuel are close.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
You are trying to tell me that a turbo prop is a Diesel Engine... Are you kidding me... A diesel engine has pistons that go up and down in rapid succession turning a crank shaft to produce its power in a very similar fashion to a gasoline engine. A turbo prop engine has an air intake, air goes into the compressor to be compressed and then funneled into a combustion chamber where it is ignited and blown through the turbine wheel that turns the turbine wheel. The turbine wheel then turns the compressor and the prop.

When I read your statement it is so out in LALA Land and unbelievable that I had to reread it again... A Diesel Engine, and A Turbine is no where even close and to make that comparison is just uneducated. Got to a diesel engine repair center and turn a crank on an engine... It is very difficult because you have compression in the cylinders, the Turbine or Jet engine does not have compress. Next time you are at an airport walk up to a turboprop and spin the prop... It spins very easily...
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
first of all read all of the comments before you go spouting out information that has already been covered....check the time stamps
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
that tread was talking about the 182
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
Sorry. I miss read your first part.
preacher1
preacher1 1
#1 diesel or kerosene is on par with JetA
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
true but Jet A also includes an antifreeze to keep it from jelling....also much of todays diesel is non-sulfer so an additive is added to help it pass through the system better which is a scam in itself because they "remove the sulfer" but make you add an additive to regain the "lost" octane.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
"true but Jet A also includes an antifreeze to keep it from jelling.." - This is true in many venues, but is not in all cases. Many times it depends on where or what the plane is flying in. They do have Summer and Winter Blends to control jelling.
chalet
chalet 1
So for you the Cessna Turbo 182 is a turbine A/C, right?.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
NO... Not even close.. It has Pistons that drive a crank shaft that turns a prop. It is not even classified close to a turbo prop. The Diesel engine has compression, a turbo prop does not have compression. Just because it uses the same fuel does not mean it is in the same classification.
chalet
chalet 1
OMG, tell me which airline you work for so I stay miles away from it lest......
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
LOL... Now I know what the BS stands for in your Degree!

[This poster has been suspended.]

sparkie624
sparkie624 0
The Dash 8, ATR 72, King Air 350 All require Type Ratings. Type Rating is due to the weight of the a/c.

Also, on the new fan's 90% of the thrust is from the fan and 10% is from the engine, likewise on a Dash 8 turbo prop 90% of the thrust is from the prop and 10% is from the engine.
Musketeer1
Musketeer1 3
Holy crap am I too late for the weenie measuring contest? There are piston aircraft, turboprop aircraft, and jet aircraft. There are reciprocating engines and there are turbine engines. The "San Antonio sewer pipe," "flying pencil of death," "Garrett's on a stick," whatever you want to call the Metro, is a turboprop aircraft using a turbine engine. Now put the tape measures away boys they are all equally tiny.
Moviela
Ric Wernicke 1
The male FA walked into a West Hollywood bar during just such a contest.

He excitedly exclaimed "I love a buffet!"
Flyaay
Bryan McKee 3
All lets not get wrapped up in whether or not this plane is a jet. A young man my age lost his life today I think we need to keep that in mind!
Moviela
Ric Wernicke 3
I feel very sorry for the man who lost his life while chasing his dreams. So sad he endured feelings of pressing on in an unsafe workplace. Should this crash be one degree less than an accident there should be life sentences for the principals.
preacher1
preacher1 3
Everybody here, myself included, has had a dose of engine types and fuel. Let's just all agree that we are all correct from the context of which we speak and drop it and remember that this story was posted about a crash in which lives were lost. RIP
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
alright
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
I agree...
gspyke
Gail Spyke 3
Kevin is right. Although the engines are technically jet engines the aircraft as a whole is not considered a Jet in the aviation community of which I am a part of.
atcssct
Kevin Ford 3
Saying I am totally inaccurate is, well, totally inaccurate!
sparkie624
sparkie624 -3
And another totally inaccurate statement. Please post your mechanical qualifications that allow you to document this as fact.

Mine to say you are inaccurate is as follows: I have been A&P Mechanic for 29 years and working on Jet Engines for 25 of those under part 121. I have worked on Pratt & Whitney JT8D-9, -15, -17, Roles Royce Spey, GE CFM-56, CF34-3A1, CF34-8C1, Pratt & Whitney PW100, & PW120.
chalet
chalet 1
How old are you anyway
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
atcssct
Kevin Ford 3
Don't want to argue. Look at picture of plane just like it. Those are props on the wings. Although those props may be driven by jet engines, its not considered a jet. Jus sayin.
sparkie624
sparkie624 -2
You are totally wrong... Inside the Turbo Prop engine is a jet engine... A jet engine has a Intake, Compressor, Combustion Chamber, and a Turbine... Guess what. The Turbo Prop has the same thing. Either the "JET ENGINE" turns a fan or it turns a prop... It is still a jet engine.

Jet Engines come in 2 formats. Axial Flow and Centrifugal Flow. The Germans Developed the Axial Flow and the English developed. Axial Flow is more popular in Fan Jet as hey are thinner but longer. Centrifugal Flow is more popular with Turbo Prop and is shorter but much fatter.
Moviela
Ric Wernicke 1
In my mind I have always considered a "jet" to be an aircraft with jet propulsion. This meaning the energy from combustion as air and heat makes the plane go up. An engine that lacks pistons and has compressors that converts its energy into mechanical motion is a turbine. In most cases the turbine drives a propeller.
preacher1
preacher1 1
He and I have had this discussion before and from a pilot/pax/ general public standpoint, your description is correct. He is correct in that they are both turbine engines, albeit a different kind, one propelling with thrust, and the other with a propeller. Phil Rudd is partially correct above about the type rating. The King Air does not require a type rating but the 350 does as it is above 12000#. Type rating is based on the weight but a pilot will have to check in each different aircraft.

[This poster has been suspended.]

preacher1
preacher1 2
yeah, but he need to know how to fly it and if it was my King Air, he better have turbine time. You are correct in that he could legally do it though. After leaving a 707, I flew a 757 for about 23 years. After I retired, the company got a brand new 767. They carry the same type rating but they invited me back up and it took about an hour for the transition. Now, part of that was Boeing but part of it was FAA. Now, that same ME guy could not jump into the 350 because it is above 12 grand and will require a type rating. It may fly just like a King Air and have the same avionics suite but because of the weight, will have to be typed.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
atcssct
Kevin Ford 2
I agree with everything you said except one thing... a Metroliner is still not considered a jet aircraft. Not for controllers...or for pilots acquiring time. Sorry.
atcssct
Kevin Ford 2
This is really not the forum for this Sparkie, BUT to make a point let me ask you a question. The PC-12, PA46, and C208's using the turbo jet driven single engine props...are they jets too? If so, Pilatus, Piper, and Cessna should be charging a whole lot more for their airplanes!
atcssct
Kevin Ford 1
Sparkie...re read my previous posts. I already said and understand its a prop driven by a jet engine. There's props on each wing. That makes it not a jet. In the aviation world, its a prop aircraft. End of discussion.
sparkie624
sparkie624 -3
If it has a Jet Engine, then it is a Jet A/C
Darrens
Darren Shields 2
Good grief! Are you serious?? . If it has a turbine engine and a prop attached then it's a "Turboprop". This is basic. Honestly Sparky, everyone is "Trying to educate you. Perhaps it's time to listen?
mskierki
mskierki 2
It doesn't have a jet engine. You are making a fool of yourself right now. I can understand in a common vernacular calling a turbofan a jet engine. But it in no way applies to this type of discussion.

I suggest that you just stop posting and just let this thread go.
sparkie624
sparkie624 -1
BS.. What turns the prop... A JET ENGINE... What is so hard to understand that a JET ENGINE is not installed here.. By the same token.. An APU is a jet engine that is used to produce electricity, sometimes Hydraulic Pressure, and many times Bleed Air. Not calling it a Jet is just wrong. Turbo Props are Jet Driven
chalet
chalet 1
Where did you get your A&P PhD
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
I went to Piedmont Aero Space Institute in Winston Salem. I have been working part 121 Maintenance on 737's (older and NG's), Fokkers, Dash 8's, DC0's/MD80 series, CRJ 200/700/900's for 29 1/2 years and have 3 years as an Aircraft Maintenance Controller for a Major Airline.

Please tell me where you got yours!
chalet
chalet 1
What did you learn in all those years, that is insofar nomenclature of power plants. As for me I got a B.S in Mechanical Engineering at CalPoly, San Luis Obispo, verfy good school I should add.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
I have learned much over my many years and have a reputation of taken a broke plane and making it a fixed airplane. I have seen many failures over the years and have MANY years of experience with all facets of maintenance. I have worked on many Turbo Prop engines and Jet Engines... ranging from JT8D to PW100&120's to CF-56's to CF34 and more. If it is on the jet engine, I have worked on it.

With a BS in Mechanic Engineering, how has that helped you in working with particular engines and what aviation mechanical licenses has this helped you with in your aviation carrier.
chalet
chalet 1
I have worked on all sorts of ram jets specially those found on Fireworks (LOL!!!)
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Sounds interesting.. But there is a lot of differences between RAM jet and Turbine Jets...
spatr
spatr 1
I guess I got my Saab and ATR types for nothing.
atcssct
Kevin Ford 1
Well said Gail. Thank you!
atcssct
Kevin Ford 1
Nope it appears your just in time muskateer. Thanks for participating! ;-)
atcssct
Kevin Ford 1
Sparkie? You there? Like a ghost town all of a sudden. Thanks ATC.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Working Maintenance Control... Got majorly slammed for a while and had a meeting to attend on top of it all.

[This poster has been suspended.]

preacher1
preacher1 1
Your ex employer, at MSP. He knows the difference. He's just being picky and stirring things up. LOL. As I said above, both ya'll are right in that they are ALL turbine engines but each one of them has a different means of propulsion.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
just like an Abrahms and a chinook use almost the same engine....just a different drive train and a different application.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Your statement shows how much you do not know about planes... What airline do you fly for... I shall avoid it.
ATCguy1
ATCguy1 1
Anytime!
winga34
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CSQ405/history/20131203/0035Z/MDSD/TJSJ
chalet
chalet 1
This is a PROPJET OR JETPROP, the TV guy was wrong as most of journalists are since they simply do not know anything about aviation.
atcssct
Kevin Ford 1
Sparkie...a turbo prop is not a jet. Still.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
One Simple Question: What kind of engine turns the prop?
mskierki
mskierki 1
Gas turbine?
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Close, with the minor exception that the gas Turbine actually uses gasoline vs Diesel or Jet Fuel.
Darrens
Darren Shields 1
What determines nomenclature is the means of propultion. A jet is prepelled by hot exhaust gasses. A turboprop is propelled by a propeller.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
You are correct, however keep in mind that the "hot exhaust gasses" from that jet engine is turning the prop and about 10% of the thrust from most turbo props comes from the Jet Engine and 90% for the props. Make note that the GE engine on the 777 that the fan also produces 90% of the thrust and 10% by the Jet Engine itself. That engine is very similar to the turbo prop in the fact it drives a big fan and not a prop.

BTW, the 777 FAN and Engine are 2 separate pieces that have to be installed together... Just like the prop would be on the Turbo Prop.
atcssct
Kevin Ford 1
I appreciate the technical side...and your experience as a mechanic. Let's agree to call it a jetprop then...k? I was only talking about what we see by looking at the airplane. I have a feeling the writer of the aarticle didn't have the knowledge that you have when he called it a jet.
sparkie624
sparkie624 -2
I will buy off on that... I remember one time I was flying NON Rev and the plane was full. I needed to get on that flight as it was the last one and I was headed back to work. One guy made a big deal... "They said I was going to be flying on a Jet Aircraft, not a prop plane"... LOL, he did not fly because of it... Was not going to tell him the difference... I just cheerfully too his seat and let him figure out later that the only way to fly into that station was via a PROP JET :)

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