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  • 90

NORAD F-15s intercept unresponsive TBM 700

Übermittelt
 
A TBM-700 from New York to Florida has lost communication with air traffic control and overshot its destination by >250 miles. NORAD F-15s are investigating. (flightaware.com) Mehr...

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jayperkins
jay perkins 16
Sadly, once a pilot is hypoxic to the point of slurred speech, it takes a few minutes of 100% Oxygen right away to bring him/her back to rational thought.

Dropping to even FL120 will not help much. A slow decompression, depending on the cause, will likely result in a slow recompression. That is not very helpful. If you are a 35 year old, mountain biking pilot living in ASE at 8,000 FT ASL. You can probably recover at a cabin pressure of 14,000 feet.

A 60+ pilot living at sea level -- was doomed when he became hypoxic without 100% Oxygen in seconds. Euphoria rules your actions after that with bad results. "Everything is going fine"
Wayne47
This the second recent case of a pilot losing consciousness and the plane continuing until the fuel ran out within just a few weeks. Perhaps single engine PICs flying pressurized aircraft should do so on O2 as it sounds like recovery by seeking a lower altitude may not be an option. With both incidents it has been fortunate that the aircraft came down over water and not in a populated area perhaps compounding the tragedy.
bbabis
Bill Babis 2
Michael, the cirrus in the first incident was non pressurized. Both incidents are due to misuse or nonuse of O2 systems when they were already called for by FAR, checklist procedure, or common sense.
paliughi
ron paliughi 8
The new TBM 900 has an "automated" pressurization system- no programming by the pilot. Automated? A loss of bleed air source is not always noticeable, cabin press is maintained for awhile in a small pressure vessel until it finally smoothly bleeds down and cabin alt slowly rises. Very subtle not overt like a cracked window-no ear bump. I believe at FL 280 the cabin would already be at 10,000 under normal operation. A single engine turboprop lacks the redundancy of a twin. Tooling around in a single engine pressurized civilian airplane in the flight levels sans a sealed mask fully on therefore introduces a new level of risk. Quick don masks? Gotta be quick. God bless these folks.
SteveDietrich
Steve Dietrich 1
Presumably the aircraft had a high cabin alt warning light or alarm
airbusflyboy
airbusflyboy -4
The aircraft should have an Aural Warning system to alert the pilot of increasing cabin altitude as would have occurred in this accident , not to mention some indication via a gauge or electronic display to show the same ......... The pilot should have immediately declared an emergency once he fessed up to ATC that there was an indication that was not correct. These rich folks are buying up these expensive aircraft and are not being trained properly ........ Proper training might have saved these people from this fate .
flyboymeii
Brewer Pearson 6
I went through initial TBM training in 2012 at sim com Orlando. 6 days including a check ride with a different guy on day 6. These instructors don't care how many type ratings or how many thousand hours you have. They put you through the paces regardless. Another ATP and I went through together and received good training and a Pro Card status. Went through recurrent in May of this year and they take nothing for granted during recurrent This plane is not hard to fly but requires a good working knowledge of the systems to be safe and proficient. This particular pilot probably had more time in TBM aircraft than any non-factory or ferry pilot. I suspect he was in denial that a brand new plane had a pressurization issue until it was too late. Also the previous 2 TBMs he owned were non G1000 with different pressurization instrumentation and that can be a factor as well. Sad indeed.
preacher1
preacher1 7
Both Husband and wife were well experienced pilots, especially in type. This may have accounted for not declaring Emergency, trying to handle problem himself. Agree with another poster here though; there should be an audible warning for loss of cabin pressure as a gradual drop as in this aircraft is not immediately noticeable as in others where depress just happens. This was a new plane. Is this just a fluke or have they got a problem with this system.
bbabis
Bill Babis 10
I think you are spot on. There clearly was an inclination NOT to declare an emergency and the mask was not put on. I have a friend who knew this couple and has the sister ship to KN. He has had a problem with the pilot's door seal and has lost pressurization. Other TBMs with the pilot door have had this issue. He said you get plenty of warning of the problem. First, the sound of the leak, then yellow CAS, then Red CAS, and then audible alert. The masks in the the back will also auto drop. Something else he mentioned is that the O2 system can be turned off in two places. Externally at the bottle which would give a yellow CAS message and in the cockpit at an OFF/AUTO/MAN switch that doesn't give a message. If OFF, there would be no pilot or Pax O2 and the masks will not drop. Some pilots may turn this off to save the "hassle" of the spaghetti jungle in the back. Bottom line, the pilot did not treat the problem with the seriousness that was required.
airbusflyboy
airbusflyboy 3
Complacency is a big killer in aviation ......... Initial and recurrent training is mandatory to fight complacency but ultimately it is up to us as pilots to keep ourselves in check and follow the red tabs / emergency procedures .......... We can never assume that the next flight will be the same old , same old ........ I cannot believe that this flight crew would not have had other warnings to alert them of loss of cabin pressure and it seems very odd to me that the loss of an aggressive response to get this aircraft descending quickly is what took place . If you have a problem and it is life threatening , you must declare emergency and take the proper steps to get the aircraft and yourself in a safer place .......... This aircraft should have been built to FAR part 23 standards and it should have had a Visual and Aural warning system in it for loss of cabin pressure . This should be a big wake up call to anyone flying such aircraft as TBM or the other single engine high altitude aircraft . Terrible loss of life compounded by what seems to be a preventable accident .
preacher1
preacher1 2
Yeah, with a slow bleed system on it, I know we are arm chair QB but I think I would have declared Emergency and hit 10 grand PDQ. That way they would have had to have give it to him but twice requesting altitude drop should have tipped somebody there was a problem. 1st was routine. 2nd should have gotten attention.
bbabis
Bill Babis 4
I agree about getting down pronto. But we can't except ATC to read our minds and do for us what we should do for ourselves. Mayday and 7700 get immediate attention and other aircraft moved out of the way.
preacher1
preacher1 2
Well, this is true as alt. changes are made all the time for whatever reason. The problem here was as said above, denial of a true problem on a new AC. Armchairing, all the more reason to get down
Viperguy46
Jesse Carroll 1
This sounds like the old "Kill the Doctors and Lawyers Days" when the King Air and other aircraft started being so automated. Terrible loss of life here and sounds as it could have been prevented with a deferent pilot warning!
Too complacement on everything being "AUTOMATED". Need to get back to basics and FLY the airplane!
Sorry for the people and families who now have to live with this tragic accident! RIP!
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
This crew was a week or two out of recurrent, but was any hi alt physiology discussed?
airbusflyboy
airbusflyboy 1
Looks like SIMCOM in ORLANDO, FLORIDA does intial and recurrent recurrent flight training for the TBM aircraft ....... The syllabus seems to be fairly complete, 6 days for initial and 3 days for reccurent. Would be interesting to know if they run through any cabin pressure loss procedures ?
I would say that since these aircraft would be flown many times single pilot, that would have to be a very important topic to cover in depth.
airbusflyboy
airbusflyboy 1
Who is teaching Intial and Recurrent training on the TBM airplanes ?
ualiah
Peter Crew 6
CNN at the top of aviation news reporting again!!!! Just one question to Brooke Baldwin, was it a JET or a prop plane?????
emarko88
Eric Marko 1
Trick question...it was a TURBO JET
Purdue13
Purdue13 3
Turboprop, but I knew what you meant
emarko88
Eric Marko 3
If you saw CNN's coverage you would've seen what I was alluding to...
raedward
raedward 9
And Blitzer was freaking out about how the plane might crash into Guantanamo Bay, even though the flight path was far to the west of GITMO. The only intelligent comments on CNN yesterday came from Miles O'Brien and Mary Schiavo.
Viperguy46
Jesse Carroll 1
Who in there right mind would listen or watch CNN?
Especially Blizter dumb croft!
yapur8
jose yapur 5
Este lamentable accidente de TBM 900 en jamaica , merece una investigacion total ¿porque sucedio esto? que dios lo tenga en sus gloria.
preacher1
preacher1 0
Google translate: This unfortunate accident TBM 900 in Jamaica, deserves a full investigation why did this happen? that God has it in its glory.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT -3
That's too much effort, this is an English site. Soon we'll be pressing 1 for English here too!!!
joelwiley
joel wiley 9
1 for American English
2 for British English
. . .
HerrThor
HerrThor 2
I agree, I am Hispanic, but as you said, this is an English site.

[This poster has been suspended.]

THRUSTT
THRUSTT -1
Oh pardon me thou bleeding piece of ignorance, but English is the language of aviation, this is an English site. It is obviously read quite well by the posters who post in a different language.
Also
preacher1
preacher1 2
You ain't being too slouchy yourself, old man. You are just plain speaking. He pissed me plumb off. Now, ain't much of this proper English. I wonder what ire this will bring?
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
If it isn't spelling, or grammar it's language...we must have something to gripe about. Yes English is the language of aviation, but can't we be a tad forgiving and kinder?
preacher1
preacher1 -3
Guess we have to talk to FA about that too. Not prejudice but English is the International language of aviation and their computers can go English as well as a foreign language.

[This poster has been suspended.]

joelwiley
joel wiley 3
Not meaning to sound like the grammar police, but when it is used as the the subject of a sentence, then prejudice is appropriate. When used as a verb, prejudiced would be correct. I may be handicapped with EFL, but my reading of the sentence had prejudice as the subject. As for 'go English', that may be a simple typo for the word do.
preacher1
preacher1 6
Well, it doesn't appear that any amount of argument would change your mind so I will not expend the energy, other than to say that my reply was directed to THRUSTT and Mr. Wiley, as we have all been friends for several years and quite capable of understanding each other. You are entitled to your opinion. As far as ATC conversations outside of U.S. Airspace in native language, I spent 36 years as a corporate, big iron pilot, flying 707's, 757's, and a 767 as well as a
CRJ 200 after retirement, of which about 60% was International flying, or in case you are not familiar with that term, that means outside the U.S. Regardless of what language may be actually used, that does not change the fact that English is the international language by ICAO standards, besides some countries losing the war, the Airline industry was birthed and developed in the U.S., and copied by the rest of the world. No brag or arrogance, just fact my friend. My 7 years on site and ATP trumps your 2 years on site and private rating. Goodbye.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
Damn, I'm gonna have to get a bigger leash and one of them spiked collars for u Preacherman!!! Sic em...
PADDYSPIG
PAT BRENNAN 2
Oh, Mr Pilotman415, I am impressed no end by your mastery of "the correct conjugation of words." I hope you will soon advance to the level at which you can handle the difference between the plural and the possessive: it's "Americans," not "American's" when you are referring to more than one of us. Do try to keep the rubber side down - and mind the gap.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
The apostrophe may have been correct if the following word 'ego' was implied. It then would have been merely misplaced in the use of the singular rather than the plural.

The grammar neighborhood watch
PADDYSPIG
PAT BRENNAN 1
If "the following word 'ego'" had been implied, the preceding word "You" would have had an "r" on the end of it. Who's watching your neighborhood?
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
"Its" heads at you.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 0
Maybe you should learn punctuation, there should be a comma after prejudice!
Maybe the rest of the world should shake their heads saying no to my tax dollar!!!
THRUSTT
THRUSTT -4
I don't think his name was Gloria...
hiflier32
ric lang 1
But it may have been the wife's!
preacher1
preacher1 0
Actually according to Google, neither one: "This unfortunate accident TBM 900 in Jamaica, deserves a full investigation why did this happen? that God has it in its glory.
hiflier32
ric lang 1
Might have been his wife's!
flyboymeii
Brewer Pearson 3
The "indication" he referenced may have been the cabin altitude climbing. Disbelief is a common first thought process. I think the cabin altitude at FL 280 is about 8000' at max diff. Might have tried to figure out what's going on without donning the mask immediately. I expect some new procedures when I go to recurrent at Sim Com next year. We always do an emergency descent in the sim but rarely talk about a slow depressurization event like this may have been. RIP Larry
bbabis
Bill Babis 2
I don't know what kind of new procedure could be instituted. All they can do is reinforce step #1 of every presurization problem known to man.
flyboymeii
Brewer Pearson 1
First thing I expect to see change is the "Cab Pressure" illuminated light checklist starts with " Don Oxygen Mask, O2 100%". That will be a change for one.
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
Are you telling me that it doesn't start that way now?! If not, Socata has a real problem with this one.
flyboymeii
Brewer Pearson 1
RED WARNING CAS MESSAGE “CABIN ALTITUDE” ON

1- Pressurizationindicator............................ CHECK If cabin altitude > 10000 ft :
2- Oxygen .............................RefertoChapter3.13 3- ”BLEED”switch ............................ CHECKAUTO 4- ”DUMP”switch .................... CHECKUNDERGUARD 5- ”RAMAIR”controlknob ...................CHECKPUSHED 6 - Limit flight altitude to maintain cabin altitude < 12000 ft
7 - If necessary EMERGENCY DESCENT (Refer to Chapter 3.6)
lcire1
Eric Rindal 1
What is the "RamAir" controlknobs function?
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
Wow, they're leading you through as if you must have screwed up instead of having a system problem. An Oxygen referral only? Mind numbing!
preacher1
preacher1 3
I like that #7, if necessary EMERGENCY DESCENT and then refer you to another chapter. I'm sorry but it looks like it ought to be first and then run all that other. If all that has gone to hell and you are out of it due to lack of oxygen, you'll never make it to #7. Declare, get down, fly the plane, THEN fix the problem.
flyboymeii
Brewer Pearson 1
I'm hearing that because of the high impact into the water there is nothing left to recover so the questions remain: What caused the loss of pressurization? Was it a cabin leak or a switch (bleed air) placed in the wrong position. The pilot door issue mentioned elsewhere is a squeal that wouldn't go unnoticed and would take some time to overcome the bleed air coming into the cabin for an altitude climb. At FL 280 at max diff the cabin is at 7500 feet or so and the first CAS message should come on at 10K. A slow depressurization should give plenty of time to put on a mask before you get into the teens. I don't think he would have sounded so calm in the initial 3 radio transmissions if he had had a rapid decompression event. JMO
preacher1
preacher1 1
I'm like Eric above; does anybody know what that RAM AIR control knob function is in that cklist?
flyboymeii
Brewer Pearson 1
Per the Sim Com Training Manual for the C2/850...EMERGENCY OUTSIDE AIR SOURCE The emergency outside air source system functions to supply ambient air to the cabin when required under unusual or emergency situations. The EMERGENCY RAM AIR control, located below the copilot's subpanel, is mechanically linked to a tightly searled, spring-loaded valve on the forward pressure bulkhead. The valve receives ram air vai an inlet located forward of the right windshield. A button in the center of the EMERGENCY RAM AIR control knob must be pressed before the control can be moved. Pressing this button and pulling the control fully-out opens the valve; pushing the control fully-in and releasing the button closes the valve and locks the control in position. NOTE: The emergency ram air valve cannot be opened when the cabin pressurization differential is greater tan 4 psi.

My instructor in initial said smoke in the cabin procedure would be don your oxygen mask, dump the cabin of pressure and pull the ram air knob to evacuate the cabin quickly of smoke and keep a steady stream of ram air till on the ground.
lcire1
Eric Rindal 1
I'm continually replaying in my mind what set of circumstances would lead two apparently competent and current pilots to a conclusion at 280 that they needed to get lower yet didn't require O2 or the declaration of an emergency for a max decent to do so? I don't fully buy into the line of thinking that they simply failed to act. I keep looking for a set of indications and conditions that would lead them to act as they did rather than assume they just did it wrong.
preacher1
preacher1 2
Do you reckon he was just in denial on the warning because it was a new plane and she just yielded to her husband. Kinda like 214 last year, blind led the blind and the all went in the ditch.
lcire1
Eric Rindal 1
I keep focusing on how a partial or full loss of Bleed Air would present itself as a start condition. What is the immediate effect the pilots would see as warnings and cabin altitude indication. After an initial bump how quickly would the cabin bleed down? Could this be misconstrued as something other than a Bleed Air issue?
preacher1
preacher1 1
Don't know about it being misconstrued but I would think also, as has been noted in various comments, what kind of physical shape was the guy in. They were an older couple and living in Rochester, basically at sea level. Immediate effects would be different than say for a younger guy, in top shape living at 5k.
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
Maybe they missed a CAS message and got into the air with the O2 turned off and made a fateful decision to push onward. When the problem struck, be it slow or more rapid, they knew there would be no reason to put the masks on because they would not work. To declare an emergency might reveal the dumb mistake you had made so let's just get down as soon as we can. Then the snowball overtook them. Only the wreckage could tell the story unless someone with that knowledge steps forward.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Don't think it would have pressurized would it? All was OK for about an hour or so til they got down over NC and that is when he first told ATC about a problem
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
I'm saying that the O2 may have been turned off at the bottle. That would give a yellow CAS message but would not affect pressurization.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Yeah, but had he done that, that CAS should have shown up before then, but didn't until they were over an hour into the flight, down over NC
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
Yes, it would have been on from power up but it may have been missed in a litany of other messages at the time or ignored because of inconvenience. At some point though he knew it was on and what it meant. To continue on saying nothing will happen on this flight grew the snowball. To declare an emergency when he had the pressurization issue might have exposed this terrible decision. Pilots can be like that.
preacher1
preacher1 1
yep, but doing a little second guessing, had he done that, It would only have been known to him and his wife. Even the controller wouldn't have known; instead, while nobody is sure, the crash has the attention of the aviation community and others.
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
Maybe not even his wife.
preacher1
preacher1 1
flyboymeii
Brewer Pearson 1
The bleed air switch is right next to other environmental controls. Could the bleed air control have been confused with the air conditioning control and cut off by mistake adjusting the a/c. Just a thought
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
Many things could have caused the loss of pressure. Your thought is as good or better than any. The reason they died though is that they did not have or use O2 when it was called for.
flyboymeii
Brewer Pearson 1
And that my friends is the "Bottom Line"
preacher1
preacher1 1
preacher1
preacher1 1
I am kinda like this like I am by MAS370. Until we find the plane, all is pretty much speculation and based on the impact, recovery is going to be hard pressed.
flyboymeii
Brewer Pearson 1
Probably will never know. But it would certainly explain the slow cabin climb if the bleed was turned off and he didn't realize what he had done. Could have taken several minutes for the 10K cabin alarm and by then he might not even remember adjusting the air conditioning.
lcire1
Eric Rindal 1
O2 is a secondary backup system and isn't needed to pressure the cabin. it is a checklist preflight item. usually first a check that O2 is on by confirming switch position and secondarily by depressing the test button on the quick donning mask to make sure you hear it hiss. what we don't know is if the O2 tank was full on departure. tank pressure is shown in the cockpit but if the tank was not full on departure and the problem was occurring before his call to descend, they may have simply run out of O2 and removed the masks and only then making the decision to descend. possibly already hypoxic. you have many hours of available O2 with a predictable charted time shown but at half full pressure you have far less than half that time left in the tank.
lcire1
Eric Rindal 1
Plausible.
lcire1
Eric Rindal 1
here is the cklst for ”BLEED OFF”

Indicates that the pressurization system is not running possibly due to :
- failure or
- ”BLEED” switch on ”OFF/RST” position
1 - CHECK ”BLEED” switch position and . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . CORRECT
2 - If possible, reduce power
FLY THE AIRPLANE
3 - ”BLEED” switch . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . OFF/RST
4 - ”BLEED” switch . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . AUTO
5 - If warning ”BLEED OFF” displayed :
6 - Limit flight altitude to maintain cabin altitude < 10000 ft
7 - If necessary, . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (no oxygen available) . . . . . . . . EMERGENCY DESCENT
8 - Continue flight

I find item 6 and 7 puzzling as [cabin altitude] "<10000 ft" or not O2 partial pressure will be falling if actual altitude is higher than this as in FL280.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Until the last few years and then not much, there hasn't been a SLOW decompression problem to deal with, at least not that has come into prominence. As systems change, this process may too, but as you say, not really sure what can be done about it, and in this case, there were 2 experienced pilots, so that 2 pilot thing ain't gonna hold water either.
flyboymeii
Brewer Pearson 1
Not convinced the wife was a TBM pilot. She had a pilot certificate but my understanding was she had not been through training....Don't know if that matters in this situation but I don't think they were flying as a 2 man crew as has been speculated here...JMO
preacher1
preacher1 1
I'm a thinkin' that came from a news report or maybe an earlier blurb on FA, that she was qualified on this plane as a PIC. Flying as a 2 person crew, IDK
lcire1
Eric Rindal 1
All she needed to technically qualify is high alt and high performance sign off and her 3 in 90 + IFR currency. I guess nothing has been said about whether she had her instrument ticket?
lcire1
Eric Rindal 1
Good point. You appear to have some level of personal experience with the couple and in an accident the human component is always important to understand. But any rated pilot that has flown in the aircraft across the pond and to Alaska is going to have some level of knowledge regarding normal ops. I assume at a minimum she had been briefed on quick don mask use. Whether or not she had studied the TBM systems is somewhat relevant but you don't need to be much of a pilot to know; no oxygen, no wakey.

Obviously even well trained seconds have "yielded" to the captain even though they had serious doubts as to the course of action being committed.

The only point on this I think anyone has made is that there was a second pilot on board with many hours of flight time in type, (logged or otherwise) and should have had at least some minimal level of competency in the aircraft. I might also add that she ran her own successful business and likely was comfortable taking charge at least in some circumstances.
bbabis
Bill Babis 2
I don't know if she was even up front. The intercept pilots may have observed the passenger's location but I haven't heard that info. Riding in back she may never have known there was a problem and just gone to sleep.
lcire1
Eric Rindal 1
Again I agree Bill. At this point we just don't have all the facts especially regarding her involvement in managing the flight. What we do know is that he made a call to descend and sounded alert at that moment but truthfully we don't know how much time had already elapsed between whatever the issue was and his initial call. Over the next 5 minutes a clear deterioration of function can be heard in his subsequent transmissions. But at this early stage, all possible scenarios need to be considered if anything is to be learned from this.
flyboymeii
Brewer Pearson 1
I agree with all that. New plane, husband just got back from recurrent 2 weeks or so ago. First G1000 cockpit. Might defer to the recency of experience. Gosh, we'll never know I guess.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Totally changing the subject, what kind of plane is that posted on your profile?
flyboymeii
Brewer Pearson 1
Looks like a Beech Starship
preacher1
preacher1 1
Yeah it do, just hadn't seen one from the back before. Looked weird.
lcire1
Eric Rindal 1
Its Starship NC-50 which I owned until a couple of years ago. Its now flying out of KADS and the new owner just purchase a second Starship in is flying both.

For all the bad rap they received it was hands down the most forgiving twin turboprop ever manufactured. built like a tank and completely un-stallable and therefore un-spinable. With the throttles at idle and the yoke fully against the rear stop it descends at around 1000fpm while the nose gently bobs up and down basically in a normal approach attitude. In this condition you can still roll 30 degrees left and right because the main wing can't reach an angle of attack necessary to stall as the higher wing loading of the forward canard wing always stalls first.
preacher1
preacher1 1
When did they start making them, mid 80's? Seems I remember seeing one around KDAL sometime around then. Do you know bentwing60 that flies out of KADS(Montie)
lcire1
Eric Rindal 1
93 to 95. only 53 ever produced at a total cost somewhere between 500M and 1B. Hard to make a profit when they were a hard sell at 5M. The project was announced in the 80's at NBAA but like with the 787 and Hawker 4000, took longer than it should have to certify. It was overweight because the FAA would not accept the engineers figures and they made them double the fuselage thickness. Later this was proved out as the military dropped one from a couple hundred feet as a composites test only to have it bounce and still be structurally sound.
lcire1
Eric Rindal 3
TBM900 sales brochure. detailed performance charts and pictures of bleed air/environmental controller as well as a testimonial from Larry Glazer.
http://l.b5z.net/i/u/10113707/f/TBM_900_-_Comprehensive_Guide.pdf

This was a pilot that appeared to know this plane well. Was involved with the factory providing pilot feedback on requested improvements for this newest version yet was still undone by some sequence of events not yet fully understood. Recovering the aircraft to ascertain the state the flight deck control switches may be helpful but we may never know what combination of human factors and machine issues led up to this accident.

Hopefully this accident will get a detailed investigation of its likely causes. All of us have something to learn from accidents like this where 2 pilots that seemingly have good knowledge of their aircraft allow a sequence of events to unfold over time that apparently resulted in incapacitation of the pilots of a very modern and apparently flyable aircraft.
lcire1
Eric Rindal 3
While we may never know, this sounds like a bleed air issue rather than rapid decompression or outflow valve issue. If the bleed air failed you should see a warning of such but cabin pressure would try to be maintained by the outflow valve leaving other slow leaks the major route for further loss of cabin pressure. You would also immediately start using up your available ambient oxygen and replacing it with CO2 but might not get an immediate warning of high cabin altitude. This TBM900 was brand new and cabin leaks from fittings and door seals still relatively tight. not sure if door seals are pneumatic or not but if so, these may have starting leaking with loss of bleed air though not necessarily right away. Another indication it was a bleed air issue is the windows frosting over as bleed air heats the cabin and windows eventually frost up without it, though again not right away . At 280 you have very little time to recognize the issue and don your masks. If you don't recognize a problem and do it quickly you can be looking at it and not remember how to put it on. Unfortunately bad things sometimes happen to good people. My condolences to the family.
hemigpaw
CNN should stick to news about wars, politics, etc. not aviation. we all know how bad they covered mh370
hiflier32
ric lang 2
Stick to news about wars, politics etc? No, no, no. Stick to killing a kid in Ferguson Mo. THAT'S what all the news is about. Don't forget the journalist adage: "When it bleeds, it leads!"
rjl2621
rjl2621 2
CNBC confirmed through a family attorney that it was the owner, Larry Glazer and his wife Jane on the plane. Thoughts and prayers with the Glazer family and friends. Such a shame.
PaMike
Mike Parent 2
Fascinating conversations people, trouble is that only a couple of folks have hit the nail on the head. One, being the F-102 pilot. People flying high performance airplanes like the F-102 NEED to attend altitude chamber classes to be able to understand high altitude physiology and how each person reacts physically to the loss of pressure at the higher altitudes. During Air Force flight training, the fledgling pilot is subjected to classes held in the chamber at around an altitude approximating 25,000 feet. Each pilot has a "buddy" to assure that WHEN he loses consciousness, the buddy will place his O2 mask in place on him. At that point, the pilot is UNABLE to save himself. He thinks everything is OK and he is not too far from EXPIRING. The real problem is not the percentage of oxygen in the air, it is the pressure. Sufficient pressure must be available to have the O2 transfer from the lungs into the blood and thence to the brain. Pilots flying these machines NEED TO GET EDUCATED. Declare an emergency and take the lower altitude pronto. Remember, the ATC guy is sitting in an air-conditioned room at SEA LEVEL (or there about).
lcire1
Eric Rindal 2
Mike,

I agree with you on the point that altitude training is insightful to those that have participated. Watching someone else experience its effects is in many ways more useful than going through the experience yourself as you see just how quickly incapacitation occurs. And for all we know at this point Mr. or Mrs. Glazer may have done so. But the problem with hypoxia is all the knowledge in the world about it's effects isn't going to help you once you are experiencing its effects.

Aircraft accidents are rarely the result of a single error but rather a series of events that all line up to produce a bad outcome.

There were two pilots on board and neither were able to avoid incapacitation. Loss of cabin pressure at 280 is an survivable event assuming the proper steps are taken to deal with it. The question most of us want to understand is why they didn't take those required steps or if they did, why those steps failed?
preacher1
preacher1 5
You know, one thing that has been overlooked here, and it certainly doesn't relieve the PIC of responsibility, but here was a brand new plane and manufacturers on this and other types are trying to just simplify and automate everything these days to the point of just making it seem like getting in and going for a Saturday afternoon drive, hence giving a pilot a false sense of security. Flying should be a pleasurable experience with the least amount of hassle possible but as has happened, you can't just pull off to the side of the road and fix or handle a problem. We must FLY THE PLANE.
flyboymeii
Brewer Pearson 2
Automation Saturation leads to complacency. We are slowly becoming typists and automation managers and not bing PIC as we were trained years ago. The 777 crash at SFO is a good example of letting a situation get completely out of control.
preacher1
preacher1 1
I kinda hate to tie this back to that not knowing all the details but it is starting to point that way.
rhino991
Ray Vaughn 2
I believe hypoxia is quit apparent. I listened to the audio clip numerous times. The pilot sounds crisp and sharp with his communications initially, but just after requesting lower to FL18, he starts missing ATC calls. The last words from the pilot were completely unintelligible. ATC cleared him direct to Taylor and to FL20 and he (with slurred speech) responded "KN 900KN". He was responding with only a crisp and clear "KN".
atsdroid
When I listened to the LiveATC audio, two things really struck me: 1) wow that was fast; 2) "we have an indication that is not correct in the plane".

Only 2m33s elapse from the initial request for lower from the aircraft, and the first recorded acknowledgement of it's clearance for FL200. Two previous instructions had been complied with before this point (descend FL250; LT 30-deg for lower), and the present clearance to continue to FL200, though acknowledged, was never complied with (nor a following clearance DT TAY VORTAC). Two-and-a-half minutes of /useful/ consciousness was all we witnessed. Over the next 50 seconds we hear how rapidly the hypoxia was degrading the pilot, as it begins to sound slurred and is slow off the transmit button.

My CFI and various info resources have always warned how quickly hypoxia can take you from normal to talking but non-functional to unconscious. This was a harrowing demonstration. Both the controller and the pilots aboard realized too late how dire the situation was.

I cannot fault the controller at all, however. For all he knew, the pilot was busy managing a situation, the nature of which was unclear. If you were alert to the slurred speech (and you'd have to be listening for it...so an armchair analysis is a bit unfair) you might have declared an emergency for him then, but clearly at this point it was already too late, as the pilot never left FL250 to take up his new clearance. Poor controller I am sure could use a little psych counseling and a couple of weeks off. If I were in his shoes and such was offered to me, I would welcome it.

To point (2), the pilot on the radio seemed perhaps in disbelief about the situation. I am to understand this was a new aircraft, big money. Perhaps he resisted the notion that his freshly delivered shining baby was already broken in a life-threatening way. It is almost as if he /knows/ he must descend, yet at the same instant is feeling really put out by that fact. There may have been a little mental debating, "how long has /this/ been like /that/?!", maybe messing with his priorities by suggesting that if they weren't unconscious /already/ with the cabin alt. gauge reading like that...maybe it's not telling the truth.

I my mind, I can clearly hear myself reading the Peter Garrison "Aftermath" column on this one.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Yeah, but as he took delivery in March, he is 6 months into this thing and he was a little over an hour into the flight with no problems. Things started going sour over Southern NC.
osornojhon
Jhon Osorno 2
Taylor is a VORTAC in north florida
jayperkins
jay perkins 2
On another note: From what I have read about this pilot and his wife co-pilot, they are fine people that have contributed much to their community in Rochester, NY, and leave a fine, but understandably sad, family.

I dare say, that we will all die, and for a pilot, this way to die is not the worst way to die.
Godspeed.
charleshooper
Charles Hooper 1
I agree, 100%
c38clark
c38clark -5
Jay - I'm not a pilot but my oldest nephew is a commercial pilot with beaucoup years of flying experience and we've talked about this latest tragedy. We agreed that this was a stupid way to die and
should not have happened. 2 experienced pilots in a new, $3.7M aircraft? This has happened before and,
until some genius comes along and fixes this problem....it will happen again.
(And forget "Godspeed" or any other God nonsense....every now and then God gets drunk and screws the pooch - how else can anyone begin to explain Adolf Hitler, Tsunamis or Sarah Palen?)
preacher1
preacher1 5
Plenty of ways to explain them but not in this forum, but with your comment " any other God nonsense", I would not even commence to try, as it would not be properly received anyway.
rohnenrox
Brandon Cruz 2
So sad to hear what happened to this flight. If you suspect Hypoxia, declare an emergency and get lower fast! RIP
brianrush
absolutely - without an emergency mayday what is a controller to do? twice in my career I asked - are you declaring an emergency and both times pilot then responded yes....
rjl2621
rjl2621 1
Except that in this case the controller didn't ask as you did. I'm certainly not pointing fingers but I would think that a pilot saying "we need lower than that" when cleared to 250 would at least raise a question in the controller's mind as it did yours in those two times you had to ask.

Ultimately it's the pilot's responsibility but with such a short margin for error, if the pilot was trying to determine the legitimacy of indicator discrepancies he was seeing ... he may have just been busy troubleshooting what he didn't think was an emergency, especially on such a new bird.

Such a shame for all involved. I'm sure the controller (and anyone else in contact with 900KN) has been replaying it all in their heads since it happened.
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
The controller did everything he could with no emergency being declared. If the pilot was so averse to declaring an emergency or unsure of the seriousness of his problem, just put the mask on until you can get down or fix the problem. With a mask on he would have still been alert when the controller worked out lower for him.
preacher1
preacher1 1
As the intercept pilot got close enough to see the frosted windshield, him slumped over but breathing, I think he would have mentioned a mask if one had been on.
rjl2621
rjl2621 1
Well, you're assuming he had any knowledge of the lack of oxygen to even put the mask on. For all we know the indication he was troubleshooting had nothing to do with the environment of the cabin.

In requesting 180 and subsequently telling the controller they needed lower than 250, there was some urgency in his voice. As Brian mentioned, he could have asked if they were declaring an emergency at that point. I'm not saying the pilot was blameless at all ... but maybe with the right dialogue the pilot would have acknowledged an emergency was in order -- if nothing else, just to be safe.

I have no doubt pride played a role in the pilot's decision to not declare an emergency. But I'm sure the controller has been second-guessing what he could have done differently too. It's easy to Monday Morning QB the situation though.
gearup328
Peter Steitz 2
I have taken the train to the summit of Pike's Peak. At 14,000 feet, I could only stay about an hour before I began to feel weak, hazy and tired. I knew I had to go back down. The workers in the gift shop and restaurant were unaffected. They were acclimated just like people who live at high altitudes in Ecuador. As a former USAF pilot, I've done the altitude chamber twice. I know first hand how no oxygen at 25,000 feet will affect you. It has much to do with your age, physical condition and how healthy your blood is. What was this pilot's physical condition? Did he know the warning signs? Was he a smoker? What was he doing 24 hours prior to the flight? Why didn't he realize his problem sooner and declare an emergency and execute a rapid descent? These are all unanswered questions that may never be solved. Training and accepting the responsibility of being a Captain on your airplane would have prevented this accident. Declare, fly the airplane and paperwork be Damned! At least you're still alive to fill out that report.
airbusflyboy
airbusflyboy 1
Roger that , sir ! Who cares about paperwork if you are alive anyway ! My post pretty much reflects your points , but I still maintain that complacency can and will kill us if we allow ourselves in that corner .
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
I drove up there, after about 15 mins. I was definitely breathing harder!!!
gearup328
Peter Steitz 2
OK, guys and gals--here I go again. Way back in the 60's the F-102 interceptor that I flew had a mask and oxygen system that gave the pilot (single seat) 100% oxygen UNDER PRESSURE all the time! We were supposed to wear the mask all the time, even at low altitude, because the mic was inside. Such was the thinking back then--just like the first astronauts had to be military pilots. Well, it didn't take me long to learn from the older pilots, turn the system off, just let the mask hang from one strap and turn my head into it to talk. However, I wore the mask at high altitude, takeoff and landing. We were so oxygenated that it would come out of solution in your blood into your inner ear and joints after landing. I would wake at night with blocked ears and have to clear them. Sometimes my elbows would ache. No hypoxia in that airplane!
charleshooper
Charles Hooper 1
Just wanted you to know Sir, That I consider you a Hero.
konatom
T Economou 2
Stuff happens and imo his critical mistake was not immediately declaring an emergency and executing a max rate descent.
rjl2621
rjl2621 2
It's certainly easy to second guess decisions that were made, but none of us know what the situation inside that plane was. With such a new bird, I could see the pilot brushing off an odd indicator or two and while requesting the lower altitude, not really thinking it was an emergency.

This should serve as a warning to all pilots to listen to treat even the most trivial of indicator discrepancies seriously. Had he just declared it as an emergency or took it upon himself to make an unauthorized descent, they might still be alive -- despite any consequences of either action.
lcire1
Eric Rindal 1
Anyone who fly's regularly knows we all accept less than perfect aircraft. Minimum equipment lists are there to define what is required to be working for the flight contemplated. Complacency has been mentioned several times but really, we are all conditioned to except less than perfect aircraft virtually every time we fly. The problem is in getting too comfortable in accepting problems as a normal aspect of flying an aircraft. We sometimes have to do so but when we do we also need to be constantly re-evaluating our planned "out" and assure that the issue we just accepted doesn't leave us out of additional options. As a single pilot this requires us to do a lot of mental calculus very quickly when weighing any new issue while both continuing to fly the aircraft and deciding if "now" is the time to go to plan "B". It is a task that is far harder to get right in practice than it is in theory.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Biggest problem is that a GA pilot is pretty well on their own for the flight. 121 and some 135/90 guys have an MTC to go to and especially with line dawgs or tight turning 135's, it is not unusual to see some MEL items when you step into the pit.
stormint
Norm Tucker 2
When you back up and look at it a couple of things just jump out. Page through our monthly flying magazines and what is better than 50% of the ink used on? Stories about private pilot crashes. Then yoou look at another 25% or better is dedicated to "glass cockpits" and automatic gizmos and bling in new airplanes - or, for a few thousand you can add this to your airplane and it lets you think you're flying a 777! One problem-lots of time playing with electronic gadgets and not much time really flying. How much real "need" is there for all the bling. Seems like DC-3's actually flew passenger routes and they didn't even have iphones that doublled as a co-pilot. What I think make GA dangerous are monsters we've hatched.
peachstate
David Cree 2
A lot of what you say is true. I live in an Atlanta suburb neighborhood with at least a dozen Delta Captains , The Chief Pilot of Coca Cola (former Air Force One pilot---and yes, Hillary is a Witch with a Capital B) a retired Delta Captain and former SR-71 pilot----you get the idea that there are lots of very good aviators in my neighborhood.....

Unequivocally---, Norm, what you say is true-----MY friends all agree--the new generation of pilots are NOT learning the basics of stick and rudder---HOW TO FLY THE PLANE---- they just
learn how to fly computers and electronics. One of my DL 777 Capt friends told me he would never get on any Asian Airline...

And that was BEFORE the Asiana 777 at SFO . He says all they know how to do is fly computers
NOT the airplane.
stormint
Norm Tucker 1
Thanks Dave - your neighborhood probably has some interesting conversation at cocktail parties. I concur with your comments, it's a shame to hear of so many seemingly dumb errors by pilots with hours in type, but then who WOULD fly into a thunderstorm? As for the guys across the pond - if you have 5 people on a modern airline flight deck, on approach with a plane who can land itself and you fall short of the threshold... scarey stuff! Cheers
preacher1
preacher1 2
It ain't just GA.
peachstate
David Cree 1
My Dad flew DC-3's for United out of Midway before I was born. ADF was pretty much it. He is one heck of a pilot. Check out this air museum at Love Field in Dallas

http://www.flightmuseum.com/

The main exhibit Gallery is named after my Dad --Richard W. Cree

He is also a Wright Bros Master Pilot Award recipient.

He'll be 94 in about 8 weeks---He could take off and land his Citation up until about 4 years ago......

For his solo flight at age 14, he had to sit on a couple of telephone books to see out of the cockpit!!!!
RX300
Jerry Sinard 2
Crashed in Jamaica. R I P
rtjorgenson
Ryan Jorgenson 4
Found some audio... ZTL check-in around 3 minutes in. http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kgso/ZTL-GSO-Sep-05-2014-1400Z.mp3
scottyjenkins
scottyjenkins 7
at around 4:50 900KN receives 25,000 from Center and then says "we need to get lower than that". Could that be the beginning of a problem? Or just trying to get lower for weather?
rtjorgenson
Ryan Jorgenson 3
I think you're right, that was the problem. Around 4:17 he says that he has an abnormal indication but doesn't indicate what it was. The time of useful consciousness is about 3-6 minutes at FL250. Maybe should have just gone with the descent and explained to ATC later.
mschacht44
Mike Schacht 9
Looks like he asked for FL180. I agree, if I was flying and had a problem, I would get to a safe altitude then communicate my problem after the AC is safe.
cm5299
Chuck Me 4
Is it me or can you really hear him speaking slowly (almost drunk sounding) after the controller has to remind him he was cleared to FL200?


* - Not saying he was drunk. But wouldn't that be consistent with hypoxia?
rtjorgenson
Ryan Jorgenson 3
He's definitely experiencing hypoxic hypoxia (altitude hypoxia) at that point, Chuck, through his slowness of speech.
pclifton
Philip Clifton 1
Yeah, that would be a sign of hypoxia for sure. Here's an extreme example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IqWal_EmBg
leeskan
Don't those planes have drop down masks with o2 like their larger cousins.? Seems this would be mandatory on any pressurized aircraft.
Lasergunn
Larry Gunn 1
Hi, Lee. Still in Atlanta?
preacher1
preacher1 1
They do for the pax in back but as with big iron, they are close enough to reach quickly but not automatically deployed. px can be manually deployed by PIC or automatically and there is no report of spaghetti by the intercept pilot.

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

rjl2621
rjl2621 3
At that same time he was asking for FL180 but it took them until 10:30 in (roughly) to clear them to FL200. At 12:30 in (again roughly) the controller asks someone else to get 900KN to contact him on a different channel. Just after 15 mins in was the first attempt to contact 900KN.
cdinz
cdinz 1
ATC again tries calling them so many times after 14:00 in.
rtjorgenson
Ryan Jorgenson 2
ZTL has another aircraft in the area try to call them around that time as well.
rjl2621
rjl2621 2
So I missed the 13:06 call from ATC, but the timestamp on the first one I did hear was around 14:40 in ... then 15:02 is where another aircraft tried to call them. At 12:10 to 12:30 in he asked another to relay to 900KN to use different freq. but kind of too little too late at that point.

That said, the pilot didn't really make it an emergency descent. But I would think that any pilot requesting a lower FL might be treated a little more urgently.
scottyjenkins
scottyjenkins 1
at 7:15 900KN gets cleared direct to Taylor??. Not sure if thats just a waypoint or if its an Emergency decent to an airport. Its not real clear. then at 8:40 he gets cleared down 20,000 but thats over 4 minutes from his "abnormal indication" so he only has roughly 2-3 minutes to get down near 10,000 for good O2.
rjl2621
rjl2621 3
Taylor is a waypoint west of JAX. They did respond a couple times early in that exchange but from the sounds of the repeated "descend to FL200" calls for a couple mins after that it would appear they weren't descending.
scottyjenkins
scottyjenkins 2
can you hear the 900KN pilot speaking slowly or slurring his words in any of these transmissions? Ive been going over and over trying to hear it, but i just can't make it out. A couple of people earlier said they could maybe hear it.
rjl2621
rjl2621 3
Around 8:40 or so his response was something to the effect of "Kilo November 900 Kilo November" in response to them finally clearing him down to FL200. It sounded kind of slow and almost confused, but obviously he did transmit his tail number. I think that may have been the final transmission from 900KN.
LordLayton
I heard it too. Sounded slow and drunkish.
espatzz
espatzz 1
Here's a visualization of the flight route in Google Earth, derived from FlightAware Track points....

http://thogt.org/ge/N900KN_KROC-KAPF-20140905.kmz
rjl2621
rjl2621 1
One thing that I'm having trouble with in this case is the fact that it was reported the plane was being tracked by U.S. and Cuban assets, with the U.S. supposedly picking up the tracking after it left Cuban airspace. Yet no one has been able to find the debris? Shouldn't they know the exact location of where the aircraft lost engine power and began its likely rapid descent to the water?

I can possibly see them not entering Jamaican airspace, but Jamaica clearly didn't have the resources to send a fighter to track the aircraft so wouldn't the U.S. have been able to continue the pursuit? Cuba even opened their airspace to U.S. search and rescue/recovery aircraft. I can't imaging Jamaica wouldn't have.

Day 3 and not finding anything means all the answers are now at the ocean floor where it went down, assuming any of the answers could be obtained with the debris of a high angle impact with the water.
preacher1
preacher1 3
They have the location. It went to the bottom though and they just haven't recovered it yet. There were no search/recovery AC that Cuba opened to. It was just the fighters tracking/shadowing them. I have heard 2 different stories, that Cuba tracked with their resources and that they just allowed the US to continue tracking but either way, they have the location. JDF and U.S. Coast guard involved in recovery, at least for the bodies. No one has said but it is figured that it being a new plane, Tocata will try and raise plane to figure out what happened. They'll almost have to.
rjl2621
rjl2621 1
I heard that following the crash Cuba allowed our Coast Guard C-130 (and maybe some others) direct access to the crash site through their airspace so they didn't have to go around and waste time and fuel, but that was just what was reported in one of the media sources. So who knows. And you're right, while the media was reporting Cuba took over tracking the plane it may have just been our fighters who continued through their airspace ... Since we weren't posing any threat that's plausible.

I completely agree that they'll have to raise the plane, not only for the bodies but also because like you said, Tocata would have to be interested in the cause. It won't be easy as I also heard the depth in that location is sizable for being "close" to land.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Yeah, there were some ungodly figures given up here and then revised but I couldn't find them; I think the deepest was 1200' and an update says it was located. I don't know about recovery.
Av8nut
Michael Fuquay 1
Here's the flight:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N900KN
smzig
smzig 1
There are new landing gear, pressurization, and alternator systems as well. The landing gear lever illuminates when the hydraulic pump is running, and when the gear fail to extend. Pressurization is all automatic, and only requires entering the destination airport’s elevation—which can be called up automatically when
the destination is entered on the MFD’s flight plan page. Also new is a 100-amp standby generator.

from http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2014/April/Pilot/1404p_t_tbm.aspx
baldk9
I would like to thank all the rated and knowledgeable pilots who responded to this tragedy, it gives pilots like myself a keen insight to a complex aircraft like the TBM-900.
pepper1963
Jeff Pepper 1
Nice job
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
Anything can happen in any aircraft. The pilot/crew must always be prepared to cope. In this TBM900 the pilot had plenty of warning and indication of his problem. Mask, declare an emergency, start down, and this becomes an event instead of an accident. May we all learn. RIP Mr. & Mrs. Glazer.
preacher1
preacher1 1
I have to agree here. The old adage of "better safe than sorry" coms to mind here but we have all done it. You have basically a brand new AC for which you have just spent about
$3 million. You should trust the instruments.
preacher1
preacher1 1
As a GA pilot, you have no MTC to go to. You had better trust your instruments as that is what they are there for.
Terpster06
The controller should have known that the pilot would not have made such a request unless there was an emergency. Hope the controller can live with his failure to ask questions. When I worked as a controller we were aware of how pilots don't like to declare an emergency until the last minute.
airbusflyboy
airbusflyboy 1
Fully agree ........ But it all has to do with how you are trained and how you perceive a threat . I too was ATC many years ago and can count as many times on my fingers how many pilots would admit a problem but would not declare an emergency ........ Even when asked if they wanted to !!! Complacency is a killer in aviation , we have to keep ourselves aware of it and stay out of it ..........
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
Can't really blame the controller if a pilot is not giving the full story...
rtjorgenson
Ryan Jorgenson 1
Looks like the owner/pilot got this plane in March and has a ton of experience in TBMs. http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ainalerts/2014-03-27/daher-socata-delivers-1st-tbm-900-plans-us-expansion
edgeair
edgeair 1
The destination is now listed as "TADPO." Does anyone know what that is?
cgsexton
Chris S 1
Its a navigation waypoint between the keys and Cuba.
edgeair
edgeair 1
That makes since

[This poster has been suspended.]

kaedey
kaedey 2
There is plenty of oxygen at altitude. Just as much as there is at the lower altitudes. The problem is the pressure. With lack of pressure there is a reduction in the partial pressure of the oxygen that is required to provide the osmotic pressure for the osmosis of oxygen. Oxygen sensors only respond to the presence of o2 or the lack thereof.
SteveDietrich
Steve Dietrich 1
I think there is confusion. The "oxygen sensors" used by pilots and others measure blood oxygen saturation . The measurement is not affected by cabin altitude.

The "slurred speech " Could have been the mask mic

[This poster has been suspended.]

lcire1
Eric Rindal 1
not true, I've flown with a small portable battery powered pulse oxomiters and they work very well. Take off your mask at 250 and you can watch your o2 level plummet with every breath. You should keep saturation above 92 if possible. You can get these for around $30.00 bucks and all pilots flying on o2 in unpressurized aircraft should adopt their use. In pressurized single engine aircraft with a single pilot and lower level of pressurization redundancy they might make sense as well.
http://www.walgreens.com/q/portable-pulse-oximeters
hiflier32
ric lang 1
Wow! That's a lot of good data. No wonder you're an ATP
mjlewis
Michael Lewis 1
It's a new TBM-900. Shall be interesting to see what happens from this. Won't be good news for these new 900's if they have pressurization issues.
MichaelEberle
Michael Eberle 0
The FAA Registration shows it as a TBM-700 Not sure why FlightAware shows it as a TBM-900
GringoZX
It's a technicality in the FAA/DOT certification of the aircraft. King Air 350 is similar in that it is certified as King Air 300, but marketed as the 350.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOCATA_TBM
BajaFlyerDave
David Stein 1
After reading this post I though I would learn a little bit more about this aircraft, no I did not now the "M" in TBM Came from Mooney.

in any case I came across an interesting video on You Tube involving a TBM as well that might have some parallels here basically echoing many of the comments here. Don't delay! Declare! Get to a safer Place!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JkLR_xgayM
preacher1
preacher1 1
Call the plane model up on google and look at Wiki. You will see that although in the initial discussions, Mooney backed out of the production due to lack of money. They are not involved as far as I can tell.
peachstate
David Cree 1
Very interesting---the FAA registry shows this A/C be a NEW TBM 700.

Must be a typo. The only new TBM is a 900.

Obviously, this is where all the confusion has arisen.

If the pressurization loss was from the newly designed pilot door, Socata is in for
some serious re-design of their new design!!!
preacher1
preacher1 1
Seems like one of his cohorts had some problems with the pilot door. Tocata may have a problem.
mschacht44
Mike Schacht 1
Looks like it just ran out of fuel.
peachstate
David Cree 1
Just curious---a TBM 700 is NOT NEW-- production ceased in 2005

the TBM 850 succeeded it until just recently.

The TBM 900 is now the new production model with a newly designed pilot door(standard now
vs optional previously) and winglets, plus other new improvements.

So, what really was the Model # of the aircraft???
preacher1
preacher1 1
It was a 900, just delivered in March. For whatever reason, FAA reg. was not updated and still shows it as a 700
CaravanKen
Ken Davis 1
The audio file with KN around 6:30 and on where they did not respond to descent instructions. Repeated calls from Center to KN and no response at about 11:00
lcire1
Eric Rindal 1
So here is a completely speculative course of events that is but one of many that might explain what occurred. Flying along at 280 the pilot feels a pressure bump drawing his attention to the cabin altitude display? Its abnormally high but mostly stable and still within breathable limits. What has happened?

If he misinterprets this as a cabin door leak (a past known issue), rather then a bleed air failure, his sense of urgency may not be what it should. With hypoxia now quickly setting in his ability to reevaluate his conclusion is disappearing with it.

What I think we need to be considering is not why the pilot failed to act, he did act and set about a process to get lower. Rather it is just that his actions were incorrect for whatever the actual issues were and the only question is why he didn't seem to understand that fact?
NighthawkCP
Chris Pippen 1
Just reporting that it crashed on Jamaica.
luckettj
Jamaican officials say unresponsive private US plane has crashed on island, @AP reports; Coast Guard says 3 believed to be on board
luckettj
KINGSTON, Jamaica (AP) — A spokesman for the Jamaican military says the U.S.-based plane with an unresponsive pilot has crashed in the ocean north of the Caribbean island.

Maj. Basil Jarrett of the Jamaican Defense Force says the plane went down Friday about 14 miles northeast of Port Antonio. Jarrett says the military has sent aircraft to investigate. There was no immediate information about the people on board.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/fighters-scrambled-after-pilot-fails-respond
jbbooks1
Lewis Tripp 1
another oxygen problem no doubt.
RX300
Jerry Sinard 1
Off the coast of the island.
stormint
Norm Tucker 1
Well, I think we'll just beat the holy hell out of this one! Opinions are like aholes - everybodys...
hjordan
H Jordan 1
Please explain the physics of the frosted windows. My experience with compressed gases is from scuba diving.
When you compressed gas into a bottle it really heats up. When you breathe the air from a bottle is extremely dry and cold. How does the "oxygen bleed" or rather lack of, frost the Windows? Bleeding compressed gas into the cockpit should drop the tempature; the reverse should heat the cockpit – that is the loss of a negative heat source. It must have to do with high humidity and a drop in temperature. I would sincerely like to know the science involved. Thanks, Henry Jordan
lcire1
Eric Rindal 4
A turbine engine is little more than a giant air compressor. in a pressurized aircraft cabin a small percentage of this compressed air is bleed into the cabin. the pressure maintained in the cabin is controlled by a variable outflow valve which is controlled by the aircraft pressure controller. This bleed air has heat of compression and must be cooled so the cabin does not overheat. this is done by the environmental controllers heat exchanger and air conditioning. the air is left cooled so as to leave the cabin close to 70F. lose the bleed air and the outflow valve will close to try and maintain cabin altitude but will eventually lose the battle to cabin leaks. a metal aircraft flying though cold air immediately starts the process of cooling to match outside air temp which at FL250 is quite cold. when the airframe becomes cold soaked from flying though this cold air without bleed air to counteract it, windows and every thing else frost up from moisture exhaled just as it does in your car on a cold morning.
hjordan
H Jordan 2
Thanks a lot – that explains it.

[This poster has been suspended.]

AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
I wonder how, if the windows were fogged over, the F15 pilot could see the pilot clearly enough to know he was slumped over without a mask.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Just a swag, but rime ice slowly forming but not covering the whole window? I wonder, just how close was he?
nasdisco
Chris B 1
Debris found.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2746154/Rescuers-wreckage-plane-NY-real-estate-developer-wife-crashed-Jamaica-flying-1-700-miles-unconscious.html
c38clark
c38clark 1
Do you think the pressurization problem could have been caught and fixed by the ground crew?
2 lives lost in this almost-new, $3M+ aircraft. You know this should never have happened.
(And it's happened before, hasn't it?)
preacher1
preacher1 1
Stuff will happen. The problem did not surface until they were over NC. Not being there, one must speculate, but the main thing I can see here is the fact that a problem was recognized but instead of declaring an emergency and heading down, he apparently tried to deal with it himself. There is an aversion for pilots to do that, particularly GA pilots, as there is a voluminous amount of paperwork to be filled out for the gendarmes if an Emergency is declared and probably a visit to the local office or a visit from someone there.
flyboymeii
Brewer Pearson 2
Most emergency declarations involve very little paperwork and FAA intervention. The OWT (old wives tale) about paperwork is what discourages pilots from acting as the PIC which the regulations allow for "any deviation necessary to safely complete the flight.". Every student pilot is taught that reg and then gets conditioned to the OWT. JMO
preacher1
preacher1 2
You are probably right as my response was based on that OWT too, so it is definitely out there. I have never had to partake of it directly, been lucky I guess. Reg's change all the time. Last time I can even remember touching it was when I was FO on a 707 somewhere in the late 70's.; We were coming back out of the Northwest almost to the house at KFSM but simultaneously lost 3 and 4 and went in at KTUL. Wasn't a real big deal but I just remember Captain saying it was gonna be a mess PW wise. It was and seems I had a piece of it too as FO.
flyboymeii
Brewer Pearson 1
I did an ASR ( no gyro )approach years ago in low IFR into KJAN in a Beech Bonanza. I asked for "priority handling" (again OWT not wanting to use the E word). Jackson Approach did a phone interview later that day and said the paperwork was the same whether "priority handling" or emergency declaration. 10 minute phone call tops. Either way they put me on a discreet frequency and save my bacon. The controller got credit for a "save" and was later that year promoted to Memphis Center!
preacher1
preacher1 2
Never been to KJAN. They say it's a nice place
nasdisco
Chris B 1
(CNN) -- The U.S. military Thursday launched a pair of jet fighters to trail a small aircraft that was unresponsive over the Atlantic Ocean and headed towards Cuban airspace, NORAD said.
Two F-15s were flying with the plane east of Florida. The windows, according to a NORAD spokesman, were frosted and it was unknown how much fuel was left.
NORAD was in touch with Cuban authorities via the U.S. Coast Guard. The U.S. military jets will not enter Cuban airspace, a NORAD spokesman said.
The Socata TBM-700 light business and utility aircraft departed from Rochester, New York, with a flight plan to land in Naples, Florida, NORAD said. But the plane's occupants did not respond to communication attempts.
gcampbell
gcampbell 1
When a pilot asked to descend at FL 280 because he has a problem. The response should be "cleared to 10,000 immediately" not "in the works." Perhaps the FAA should put controllers through the altitude chamber.
mschacht44
Mike Schacht 3
Well the pilot did not declare an emergency so the controller did the best he could with limited information he received. All the pilot said was that there is an indication that is not correct in the plane. That can be a number of things from something simple to what actually happened.
pclifton
Philip Clifton 1
Exactly. I sensed no urgency from the pilot on the ATC recording, he sounded fairly casual. Not descending because ATC didn't clear you is bad decision-making. You're the PIC, if you need to descend, you descend, even if it means using the dreaded E-word on the radio.
brianrush
if the guy did not declare an emergency no way is ATC going to decend him to 10,000.
watkinssusan
sadly all of this is speculation at this point..the plane ran out of fuel and crashed into the ocean off jamaica..fighter jets who were scrambled earlier before cuban air space saw the pilot slumped over the controls,and later reports stated the windows were iced over,indicating the no oxygen theory..cnn reported this was a brand new aircraft,and the pilot and his wife were on board...
gcampbell
gcampbell -1
Very sad for the passengers...hope this will be a learning moment for the industry Mary.
atlwatchdog
Watch Dog 1
I'm sorry but if you have a problem at altitude declare.. sort out the paperwork later. Get it down to a relatively safe altitude to sort things out. It's unfortunate this accident happened, even more so because it was yet another that was preventable.

This is IMHO another good reason why owners should fly with a second pilot, and all high performance/high altitude flights should be conducted with two pilots.

Flying in altitudes where you will need oxygen if you lose pressurization should be regulated to require two pilots. Perhaps with two pilots the situation would have not escalated this far.
gcampbell
gcampbell 1
Thanks, I agree with your comments. I have over 3000 hours single pilot above 14,000 and I wear the alarm on my finger. ATC should receive better training to manage these issues.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
From what I read, both husband and wife were pilots. Not that it counts now.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
14 miles off San Antonia, Jamaica....
Water looks to be about 8-9,000 feet deep. Anyone going to go looking?
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
I doubt it, unless the family funds it.
flyboymeii
Brewer Pearson 1
I expect Socata to bring it up. Just about have to.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
Yeah, I didn't think about that, new airplane...
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
I was wrong on the depth, it is reportedly 1200 - 2,000 ft at the site.
JonKimbrough
JonKimbrough 1
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2014/09/05/norad-fighter-jets-escorting-business-plane-naples/15132465/
Koalabert
Albert Kotala 1
As a man who just began his flight training and has only 6 hours logged, i dont see how the pilot could be so complacent. You spent tens of thousands of dollars on an aircraft that you trust to move you safely through the air, but when it gives you an emergency notification it must be incorrect? I think any PIC regardless of expirience would trust the indication and work to rectify the situation immediately.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 4
You're right, but you can't discount the fact that sometimes we just don't do what's right, despite all the training. Human factors...
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
I worked for a man who flew his private plane and after many many years sold it. He said it was time because he was TOO comfortable and that's when accidents happen. Seems like he may have been right.
WTuck
WTuck 1
I heard multiple controllers and different flight crews try to call him on Guard today. No response lasted about an hour before I heard the fighter come on and ask him to rock his wings to acknowledge, then told him to put oxygen on if he had it on board. Very sad
shattashaun
Wreckage found by Jamaican Defense Force
cgsexton
Chris S 1
I believe it's actually one of the first new TBM-900s.
CaptJohn1
CaptJohn1 3
It's serial number 1003. Sounds new, looked at photo's of it when they were apparently ferrying it over. Nice looking aircraft. Too bad.
MichaelEberle
Michael Eberle 0
FAA Registry lists N900KN as a TBM-700
7765goldman
Pete Goldman 1
Did pilot attempt to put on emergency O2 mask?
We'll see if the wreck analysis can answer this.
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
I believe one of the intercept pilots reported that the pilot did not have a mask on, his head was slumped down, and his chest was rising and falling. Sad, because the masks were quick donning and right there to grab.
preacher1
preacher1 1
You are correct.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Intercept pilot didn't note it on.
shattashaun
2 on board. Larry Glazer and his wife. Not sure if bodies were found. There will be a press conference at 5:30pm by the JDF
mdafr
روعه وانشالله تطور افضل
hpaganserr
I was just looking thru this report and it is amazing the way people are with attitudes and languages. Some do not even know the actual history of the United States since they were driven like robots by a fallen school system that instructed many with lies and deception including the wrongful approach to rightful and wrongful pride. Anyway since 1654 the language at Zearith Israel in New York City has been Spanish, Portuguese = Ladino. English is available via headphones for those that want to hear the services in English.

George Washington the First United States President was a Hispanic and his ancestors were King Ferdinand and King Phillip of Spain whom launched the Spanish Armada against the English Channel to bring the Spanish Empire power down because of Rome and Roman Catholism. They all descended from Sancha da Ayala of Toledo Spain whom was also later from England after her relocation to England still claiming the throne of Toledo Spain. That is where you hear often the expression Holy Toledo. Most European Royals also are descendants of Sancha and some of the most prominent United States families. The comments that someone made in here were in Spanish and by no mean should be welcome with such insanity or language problem. The number one world economy almost today is China not us the USA. Soon we will not have even a USA dollar and there will be another currency. Emma Lazarus an American whose poem is inscripted at the base of that statue in New York City was a Spanish = Sephardim Yew by the way. Those whom were welcome here thru their ancestors should not be so ignorant of these facts today by the way.



http://shearithisrael.org/content/congregational-history






This is what Mr: Jose Yapur a person unknown to me wrote in Spanish :

jose yapur about a day ago 4 DownvoteUpvote
Este lamentable accidente de TBM 900 en jamaica , merece una investigacion total ¿porque sucedio esto? que dios lo tenga en sus gloria.

This is the translation of what Jose Yapur wrote in Spanish:

The individual Jose Yapur wrote a day ago the following: This lamentation of accident of the TMB900 in Jamaica deserves a total investigation. What was the cause of this accident ? May God keep him in his glory.
eater1952
Kent Thompson 1
Agreed.
scottyjenkins
scottyjenkins 0
with that many hours in type it's hard believe pilot error in something as basic as environmental. Are there any reported problems with the 900's? I really hope they can raise these guys before they hit bingo fuel.
jimhenley41
Jim Henley 0
How many on board?
GringoZX
Latest report states 3 onboard.
laundryboy
Lex M -1
Planefinder is still tracking the plane looks like the turned around


http://planefinder.net/flight/N900KN
lestermmorgan
Lester Morgan 2
I think that's a track speculation in PlaneFinder's software. Sabre shows almost the same thing. FA indicated a loss of ADS-B at the last known position on the FA map, which would coincide with predicted range. Also, the last IAS of 153 kts, down from 268, would be consistent with airspeed reduction as the autopilot attempted to maintain altitude following loss of power.
CaravanKen
Ken Davis -2
As I recall Payne Stewarts situation was they lost pressurization but the emergency oxygen bottles were serviced with nitrogen, correct?
GringoZX
Where did you get that information? Obviously not from a reliable source. Read the official accident report: http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/fulltext/aab0001.html
GringoZX
My comment is in regards to the oxygen system being serviced with nitrogen.
SteveDietrich
Steve Dietrich 1
My recollection is that the external o2 shutoff was in the off position. Probably preflight end ok with the o2 left in line

[This comment was deleted.]

hiflier32
ric lang 2
OK! What the hell is this??????
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Good question google translate didn't help much...
"You have Hidayat subscribers TCT categorize the company's account"
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
Yeah, the cow jumped over the moon too!!!
Viperguy46
Jesse Carroll -2
Dummy meant a Jet.Prop. plane.
Jamaica news reports the pilot contacted Cuba after getting sick on the flight but they denied him a landing! What about Guantanamo?
Just saying!
genethemarine
Gene spanos -3
It's a conspiracy to take out Gitmo....
CaravanKen
Ken Davis -5
Wasn't Payne Webers issue also the O2 bottles had nitrogen and not O2?

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

dbaker
Daniel Baker 7
More likely hypoxia.
zcolescott
Call it what you want, they are more than likely incapacitated a la Payne Stewart's aircraft & crew.

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

scottyjenkins
scottyjenkins 4
nope. CEO of Real Estate & Development Co in Rodchester NY. Guy is president of the TBM Owners Association.
scottyjenkins
scottyjenkins 1
Buckingham Properties, Rodchester NY with properties in Napes FL also.
khaiduk
Kevin Haiduk 2
Here is the event he received it: http://www.tbm.aero/index.php/tbm-900/news-events/news-releases/item/208-daher-socata-begins-deliveries-of-the-new-tbm-900
kingdambah
Malik Clarke -1
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

US Plane with Unresponsive pilot crashes off coast of Jamaica

The Single Engine TBM-900 Aircraft was travelling from Rochester, New York to Naples, Florida.The unresponsiveness spurred NORAD to dispatch two F-16 fighter jets set from McEntire Joint National Guard Base in Richland County, South Carolina, to investigate. NORAD said another pair of fighter jets out of Homestead, Florida -- F-15s -- took over around 11:30 a.m. and escorted the plane as it continued south past the U.S. mainland.After a long ordeal, It crashed 14 miles off the northeast coast of Jamaica.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/05/us/norad-air-threat/index.html
Av8nut
Michael Fuquay -2
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Plane with unresponsive pilot crashes off Jamaica

KINGSTON, Jamaica (AP) — A private U.S. plane with an unresponsive pilot crashed into the ocean north of the Caribbean island Friday after a journey of more than 1,400 miles.

http://news.yahoo.com/fighters-scrambled-pilot-fails-respond-172057761.html
bassam
bassam -1
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

TBM owner’s group chair crashes after becoming unresponsive

TBM Owners and Pilots Association chairman Larry Glazer and his wife Jane were on board an airplane that crashed off the coast of Jamaica after the pilot became unresponsive Sept. 5, the couple’s family confirmed to NBC News. The two are presumed dead.

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2014/September/05/TBM-pilot-unresponsive?WT.mc_id=140907special&WT.mc_sect=sap

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