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Small Plane Crashes Into Akron, Ohio, Apartment Complex

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2 killed when a Hawker H25 struck an apartment complex Tuesday in Akron, Ohio, before crashing to the ground. (www.nbcnews.com) Mehr...

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bentwing60
bentwing60 5
Now that this unfortunate event has simmered to the back burner, there are some very valuable nuggets in here for the folks who are younger than their equipment. Go to Google Earth and go to the airport and zoom in a tad. Noting the color,(exactly the same as the environment you're boppin around in) and length of the runway, do you really think you could land there safely, at 140 knts., 500 feet agl. with a 400 foot ceiling, and 1.5 miles viz, especially in a jet. Maybe 1 in 100 day and 1 in 50 at night. It's all about the lights, so turn em up no matter. Go try it in the sim. Don't know the forecast but after you threw it away and got the ATIS, the prudent would instantly be thinkin ILS. KACK. Eight miles away, your new favorite alternate. 8,200 ft., ILS. to four runways! Why, because he'd already thought about it!!! So what if they have to move the limos. The drivers don't care, and will hurry, you can bet. And the time and cost are much less than the cost of the funeral arrangements. Just because it's legal, don't mean it's safe. Ergo, because it's safe but not legal only counts if you are talkin to the FAA. It's all about stayin alive and I ain't talkin about The BeeGees. They pay you the same to know when or where not to go as they do to be able to do it! Cheers.
golflaw
golflaw 3
You said it precisely. When the weather is that low and CAK is that near, you go to Akron Canton, which sits ON a hill as opposed to AKR which sits in a bowl, with hills to the east and north where they went down. At one time I used AKR, but it lacks a lot of facilities and CAK isn't that much farther to downtown. From now through April we will have low scuz that comes and goes. In the Summer there is fog. Sometimes it burns off by 9 and sometimes not til afternoon. You don't have to be a weatherman to know what was going on here. They went to Lunken instead of CVG and then flew about 25 miles from Lunken to Wright Brothers, not DAY. And the weather was low both the day before and day they crashed.
bentwing60
bentwing60 1
Can you say cheaper fuel?
golflaw
golflaw 2
Cheaper fuel indeed. If you don't have local knowledge, then why do you use smaller airports without ILS approaches much less a tower, when the weather is right at minimums? If you're going to go below minimums to try and sneak in, why in the world would you try it at an airport in a bowl, with hills to the east and north, no ILS and a 4000 foot runway instead on 8000? When flying approach into CAK you can often see part of the runway at AKR, but you know that it's IMC flying that localizer approach - over the hills.
bbabis
Bill Babis 2
You are correct. 4000' would be a no go. The runway at AKR though is 6336' X 150' which is plenty, even when wet, for the Hawker and most other bizjets. As far as the weather goes, a missed approach is part of the procedure and again is perfectly safe when done correctly. After that you decide if its worth trying again or head somewhere else.
bentwing60
bentwing60 1
Local knowledge in this case is the fuel price,AKA dispatch, but if that is the goal, and the pilots know it, then you will at least go take a look. If you gotta look that hard, you know that if you don't cheat, the next guy will. Kinda reminds me of my old freight days, if you don't go somebody will. That was in Lear 25s in the 80s.
bentwing60
bentwing60 1
With an AVQ 46 radar.
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
The whole point of Part 91/135 flying is that Bizav is not forced to the hub and spoke airports. You go where you want when you want. I have no problem with the airport choices. That being said, the aircraft still has to be operated as professionally and safely as possible keeping in mind both aircraft and pilot limitations. Not all of us can have local knowledge everywhere we go. The charts assume no local knowledge and give us what we need to land safely if conditions are met. This investigation has nothing to do with wether the procedure should have been flown but what went wrong as the procedure was flown.
bentwing60
bentwing60 1
Really! The whole point is about why they flew the approach at all. You sure as hell don't cheat on the first approach! It's pretty obvious they didn't fly it as published. And there is no such thing as local knowledge when you truly fly freight/135 for a living, except at home! I'm outa here!
golflaw
golflaw 2
You said it. My only mention of local knowledge is that anyone who has knowledge of this airport knows why you damn well better fly the localizer approach as published and not try to duck under and get a look. They had made it into KMGY which is flat as a pancake in all directions. If the weather was low enough that they felt the need to go lower and look at AKR, well, that shold have been all they needed to divert to CAK and we wouldn't be talking about it.
bbabis
Bill Babis 2
My point is that this accident did not happen "because" they shot the approach. It seems that you and other posters here have already come to the conclusion that this crew felt the need to and did bust minimums. Well, we do know the aircraft crashed out of control and "ducking under" does not cause control loss. Speaking of ducks, it very well could have been bird strikes. Also, If the tail was carrying ice, the crash happened close to where final flaps would be selected and the tail would stall. It could also be that the aircraft was leveled at MDA with insufficient power and control was lost as both pilots looked out and nobody minded the store. We don't know! At least I don't know. The CVR will surely help.
bentwing60
bentwing60 1
This has simmered down a little more and I will tell you they did what they did, as well as they could do it! They did it because somebody upstairs expected them to do it. You gotta know when to say no!!! How hard is an ILS?
golflaw
golflaw 1
Maybe you are right, they were both looking and nobody minded the store and they lost it. Still, We will just disagree. No need to bother trying a localizer approach when you are below minimums and 8 miles from an airport with 4 ILS. PS It wasn't cold enough here Tuesday for ice and no one else reported ice in this state all day.
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
Look at THRUSTT's post below. Surface temperature just removes evidence. Agreed this trip should have finished at CAK one way or another but we need to find out why it didn't. - Fly safe my friend.
bentwing60
bentwing60 1
KCAK. you do the math.
Highflyer1950
Highflyer1950 1
nobody ever gets canned for going to your alternate airport! The one about passengers, they get to look outside as well and that pre departure w/x briefing you gave them would have prepared them for a diversion.
Highflyer1950
Highflyer1950 4
Apparently the w/x was at or near minimums for either a GPS or Loc approach. Might just be a case of duck under and take alook, maybe too low? Still, very unfortunate and another blemish for G /A. The boxes will tell the story, either way.
ah6oy
Jim DeTour 1
Looking at the track of the Cherokee plane landing in front of them it sure appears he was VFR or being vectored real strangely or scud running close to the field. It really is a shame if the flight took field ceiling and visibility conditions as weather elsewhere.
carpcoppondpig
nick gorham 1
It's a fight school plane practising approaches in real IFR conditions.
iamdebj
Debra Johnson 4
I am in total agreement with you, however the airport 8 miles away is KCAK, Canton-Akron Regional. Sadly I flew 5 of these passengers on a charter flight last Friday. I was asked whether turbo props are safer and easier to fly than jets. My response was "every airplane is only as safe as the guy flying it." I'm sick. Rest in peace my friends!
bentwing60
bentwing60 0
thank you msnbc
piperJ367
Mike Zagorski 3
Hard to believe, I had an old friend on that plane A very unfortunate situation.
Champdriver
jim gevay 4
The press is incorrectly identifying it as a H25, the ICAO code is H25B.
The manufacturers designation is HS-125, (for Hawker Siddeley), yes the spelling is correct, and includes all the earlier model Hawkers from the 400, 600, 700 and the 800 and XPs, but not the 1000.
Most people simply call it a Hawker 800 or such, depending on the model.
nasdisco
Chris B 1
http://www.ohio.com/news/break-news/latest-news-ntsb-recovers-voice-recorder-from-akron-plane-crash-1.639634
lahtiji
lahtiji 1
Local (South Florida) media reporting preceding flight (which was a training flight) advised breaking out at minimums, receipt acknowledged by Hawker crew.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/fl-akron-crash-preliminary-report-20151118-story.html
lahtiji
lahtiji 1
Largely a digest of information from NTSB preliminary report:

http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/cen16fa036_preliminary.aspx
acapulco1946
Mike Thornton 1
I just looked at AKR and rwy 7 has 5576' available for landing and rwy 25 has 6077' available for landing which is plenty. The issue is what happened during the missed approach.
ah6oy
Jim DeTour 0
Owner says its the Hawker 800. That plane has a weeping wing deicer that's laser drilled tiny holes weeping anti-ice fluid. I figure icing is out. I wonder if ground activity at the airport is recorded since I know hold short positions are to keep other aircraft from altering approach signals. I'm sure even trucks or security vehicles mess with signals. Even more shocking could somebody else google maps Akron Fulton Intl and see where the hold short lines are on the only runway access point from the Lockheed Martin south side? I feel real sick not seeing any hold short lines for the south side side but plenty for the American Winds Flight Academy north side. I do see a N4291S P28A Cherokee arriving a minute before the doomed flight and I'm thinking NTSB is going to ask questions about that. I sure hope it wasn't like timing looks and 2 planes were on final making maters worse if the 800 was shooting the localizer and not the RNAV. Something's wrong.
carpcoppondpig
nick gorham 9
The localizer to runway 25 does not have vertical guidance, only lateral. Vertical navigation is up to the pilot using the approach chart and distance measuring equipment. As such, there is no ILS critical area to avoid at AKR. Also there are no airport operations on the south side of the airport at this time. Taxiway bravo is closed, and I believe, blocked to all traffic. So there is no need for hold short lines.
ah6oy
Jim DeTour -1
Thanks I know the parameters of non precision and precision. Just know both needles dance sometimes when planes hold short especially large ones past the instrument hold short lines which is real easy to recognize the differences during VFR conditions. What's a minor angle in close has a bigger difference out further. I'm not flying anymore but something went wrong with these guys approach. I'm sure the NTSB will find some of the possibilities where we all know the majority of the time it's blamed on pilot error because they should of been aware of even mechanical problems. The Hawker 800 will also have the INS. I hope they didn't rush initialization because that plane has to sit motionless for at least a half hour before initialization. Complacency and depending on the INS to get you on the runway in zero visibility can be done but not with an incorrectly initialized or programmed INS. Hope they didn't pop out and yank and bank when set up for just prior to touch down. The security cam video appears like they weren't in a steep descent. Like always the NTSB should be able to figure out the errors.
Champdriver
jim gevay 4
As for the alignment of the INS/AHARS, Jim you are completely INCORRECT, it does not take 30 minutes, it takes 3 whole minutes. That information is straight from my Flight Safety Pilots Training Manual.

I'm currently flying a 800 with about 13 years flying 700's before that.
bentwing60
bentwing60 1
That's a lot of X-rays!
carpcoppondpig
nick gorham 3
There's multiple issues with your speculation. If the needle "danced" it would have danced left or right, not up and down. At the distance they were from the runway they would have still had adequate separation from the ground. Second, they crashed nearly on the extended centerline for runway 25. They were not off course. Third, those are not instrument hold bars at Fulton. Just hold short lines to ensure adequate separation from the active runway.

I suspect this will be a simple low altitude stall/spin. The pilots did not maintain a proper approach speed.

Similar to Colgan 3407. But, without the icing issue.The air temperature was well above freezing that afternoon. Nobody in the AKR/CAK area was reporting icing conditions to ATC.
bentwing60
bentwing60 1
My first thoughts and made me scratch my head when an ILS and a longer runway were available eight miles south. Low IFR and no glideslope available is a bad combo.
carpcoppondpig
nick gorham 2
It's perfectly safe as long as you fly the approach as written on the chart.
bentwing60
bentwing60 2
Didn't say otherwise! If you read the sequence for the time of the accident and "if it was accurate" they likely would have missed had they flown it per the chart. The fact that a C172 made the approach slightly ahead means little since they could fly the final segment at less than half the speed of the Hawker and were locals who knew all the visual cues. There's more to instrument approaches than just flying them as written and with some experience that becomes abundantly clear. In low IFR I find an ILS if at all practical. If not I "fly them as written". Just Sayin!
RECOR10
RECOR10 1
Why on earth would someone down vote your post? You seem to have posted facts. I guess in the modern US when facts are not convenient it is easy to down vote them >roll eyes<
bbabis
Bill Babis 2
Children and childish adults are on this site. I really wish there wasn't even voting to attract them.
fedexman2
Eric Schmaltz 1
Or the ability to comment for that matter!
bentwing60
bentwing60 0
We might need some aging website help. Eventually the morons find them all!
AdamSnyder
Adam Snyder 1
9 people, including 2 pilots were onboard.
http://www.ohio.com/news/break-news/update-owner-of-downed-private-jet-confirms-nine-on-board-1.639413
jamescagney2000
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/EFT1526/history/20151110/1830Z/KMGY/KAKR/tracklog

Hawker H25 small jet on approach to Akron Fulton

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20151110-1
jamescagney2000
http://fox8.com/on-air/live-streaming-wc/ - live press conference at 6:15PM EST
bbabis
Bill Babis -2
The trip was flown near peak icing alt. Plenty of ice that day. The tail may have still had ice during approach and rhat is when it gets you. CVR may shed light. May God rest their souls and comfort the families.
justinoclemente
justin chavez 1
Could you explain what exactly "peak icing altitude" is?
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
It varies and you will not find it on a chart. It is where air temperature is conducive to icing and it holds the greatest amount of moisture. Most often found in the mid to upper teens. In the Great Lakes area the icing band can be quite deep.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
I landed at Akron Canton earlier and took off right before they crashed. There were reports of moderate icing to the west by Mansfield, I didn't pick any up though...
Hamon
Hamon -1
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Developing: Hawker H25 jet was on its approach to Akron Fulton Airport when it crashed into a building just before 3 p.m.

The Federal Aviation Administration confirmed to ABC News that the plane was a Hawker H25 jet and was on its approach to Akron Fulton Airport when it crashed into a building just before 3 p.m.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/small-plane-crashes-akron-ohio-neighborhood-police/story?id=35109288
margeauxk
Margeaux K -2
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Small Jet Crashes Into Apartment Building; 2 Dead

Authorities say at least two people have died in the crash of a small business jet into an apartment building in northeast Ohio.

http://www.newser.com/story/215879/small-jet-crashes-into-apartment-building-2-dead.html
GringoZX
Robert Cheeseman -2
Quite possibly this Hawker 700.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/EFT1526

[This poster has been suspended.]

carpcoppondpig
nick gorham 12
The day prior to the accident they flew 5.8 hours in a 13 hour duty day. The crew then had a 15 hour and 20 minute rest period before departing Cincinnati. The day of the accident they had flown 0.8 hours on a less than 4 hour duty day. This is all completely legal and safe.

But, please, continue to toss a whole industry under the bus because of one accident.
bbabis
Bill Babis 5
Mike, We just are not all as good as you and are not graced with the same power to immediately know all the facts the day of the accident. What is the reason that you don't work for the NTSB?
bentwing60
bentwing60 0
Judging by the down votes, your comment was not ignored by the uninformed. The reality of the Part 135, Part 134.5, dry leasers is that flight crew qualifications are about as consistent as US/China relations. And the pressure is there. No one will take themselves out of the game. Sounds like I might be bightin the hand that fed me but, I've read a lot of FAA/NTSB reports in my years and I'd side with the ice, birds, engines not being at fault. It's all about the numbers. Wouldn't mind being wrong, but it wouldn't matter.
ah6oy
Jim DeTour -4
http://www.ohio.com/news/break-news/security-camera-footage-shows-jet-crash-into-akron-apartment-building-1.639664

Security cam footage shows the plane in the very top center then going behind trees and impacting at the top left of the frame coming down in what appears to be a steep bank all the time.

My dad flew corporate for banks during his final years of over 60 years of aviation starting in the pacific war and says corporate copilots tend to be assigned with low hours. These low hours guys of course are given experience in command on the job. Non precision busting minimums is too far out of reality for me. Possibly their weeping wing anti icing fluid ran out prior and none of the visited airports had the proper fluid. It's pretty much an antifreeze that coats the wings. Looks like icing problems after configuring for slow flight then stall or too inexperienced busting minimums 2 miles out from airport trying to fly VFR and if it was I'll never ride commercial again. It's a real tragic crash. Hope nobody waxed the leading edge plugging the weeping anti-icing fluid holes.
30west
30west 5
Jim, regardless of the outcome of the investigation why wouldn't you fly commercial anymore? I don't see the connection between a biz jet accident and airline ops/safety.
bentwing60
bentwing60 2
Lets just say that Mr. De Tours comments might be better received on a forum where pseudo knowledge would either not be recognized or read by more knowledgeable participants who might set the record straight.

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