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Plane crashes into Flight Safety building at KICT

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Looks like a King Air has crashed into the Flight Safety building in Wichita (www.kake.com) Mehr...

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dtw757
mike SUT 12
It's ironic that 3 people died in a Simulator, the very thing you practice and qualify in just so that you don't lose your life in the real world. Not made as a flip comment, having had many quals and checkrides in them myself. It just struck me that you always walk out of a sim no matter how bad (or good) the ride was and you know that even if you do mess up, you won't get hurt. My prayers go out to the families of the victims.
gsmith4151
harold smith 7
My first thought, and this has happened to me 33 years ago on my first solo king air 200 flight, just out of maintenance. This Airplane just came out of maintenance. Were the frictions loose? You fly everyday and the frictions don't change, then for engine runs, the mechanics loosen all the way and you are not thinking about this. You take off, gear up, and one throttle rolls back. A low time pilot may not catch it in time. Just my thoughts. You Microsoft pilots can say I should have done my preflight better, yes, I should have. Unfortunately, these things do happen and we should learn from them.
konatom
T Economou 2
Some time ago I took off from SFO pre sun-up in a medium twin I'd just picked up out of maintenance. Took hands off throttles, gear up, frequency changes..and suddenly in the dark noticed visible white caps on the ocean surface...Quick reach for throttles and they weren't there...they had moved back down to idle. Frictions loose. Yup, should have caught that.
krschneider
Karl Schneider 2
I have never flown a 200, are the power levers spring loaded to idle, and is it on the checklist?
gsmith4151
harold smith 1
The throttles are not spring loaded to idle but do have a tendency to go to idle if the friction lock is not somewhat tight. Same with the props but to a much lesser degree. I would have to pull out the official beech checklist to be sure but the flight safety checklist I have here says on the before takeoff checklist-"friction locks-set"
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
I have a hard time thinking it was merely a matter of throttles rolling back because of friction locks. A hand should be on the throttle at least through the first couple thousand feet of climb. It might come off to raise gear or frequently change (which should be set up for a single button push) but the hand should immediately return to throttles.

I find it difficult to accept that alone would lead to a competent pilot crashing.
atreznik
atreznik -5
Friction Locks? Diction rocks. pfffft.

I don't always do takeoffs with both hands, but when I do, I put one hand on the yoke and one hand on the power levers until after the climb profile is over.

A 200 lightly loaded should perform just fine asymmetric. Not quite ready to unroll out my trusty jump to conclusions mat, but I'm going to bet on pilot error/poor pilot technique / garbage IFR skill before I bet on MX or any other reason.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 2
I'm not ready to blame the pilot but I'm not going to accept something so simple as friction locks. It seems even silly to throw that out there as a cause. I doubt the NTSB would even write that as a cause but rather something related like the "pilot's likely failure to insure power is applied as necessary". But we're not there yet unless people start coming out of the woodwork questioning the pilot's past skills.

The plane just came out of heavy maintenance. There are a lot of questions and not a single answer at this point.
atreznik
atreznik 2
I agree with you, I don't buy the friction lock thing. I meant to be replying to everyone above.
preacher1
preacher1 0
I kinda hesitate on the friction lock thing. Were that the case, we would just go to flight idle rather than shut down, wouldn't we?
preacher1
preacher1 1
Ken: did you ever get your business/warehouse moved?
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
No, I'm still a home-based business. I'll stay here and expand to another building out back. I can't justify the high commercial rates for a business location. The only thing it will cost me is a couple dealerships which want a brick and mortar shop on site at airports.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Can't say as I blame you. I was helping my son build a truck brokerage out of the house here before my surgery. Paralyzed vocal chord, only temporary I hope, has put quietus on sales work for time being. We thought about an office to be together but with phones and Email, this was working good and no need for it.
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
It has put the "quietus" on more than your sales work! Type more.. talk less... :)
gsmith4151
harold smith 1
Was there a report that the engine shut down? I never meant to jump to the conclusion that this was what happened, but to put out one of many different senerios. A lightly loaded 200 can fly on one engine with no problem. Fully loaded it can still climb but proper pilot input is much more critical.
preacher1
preacher1 1
I think initial report was one gone which is why he turned around. You are correct on the flying on one. Full power requires hellacious pilot input but pulling back to 75% will straighten it out.
gsmith4151
harold smith 1
The problem with reducing power on the good engine to "straighten it out" is you have little margin to keep you climbing. Proper use of the rudder is the correct solution. Rudder and trim and Fly The Airplane are the proper actions. I don't know this pilots skill level and I don't know what really happened but when the shtf, fly the plane don't let the plane fly you.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Well, again correct. Instinct and checklist says full power with increased pilot input, being heavy on rudder and trim. It is a handful and I'm just saying 75% will take care of some of that additional input if you can stand it weight and climb wise. Plane was apparently light loaded, pax and cargo wise, as it was a sale being ferried to Mena AR. I don't know about the pilot's quals personally, just news accounts that he was a retired ATC guy and well experienced pilot.
preacher1
preacher1 0
BTW, did you ever get your warehouse and business moved?
nasdisco
Chris B 2
Building it struck housed flight simulators. Four confirmed dead, five missing.
dixiepilot
dixiepilot 2
They just said that 4 people were killed, 4 unaccounted for in the flight safety building and 4 being treated with injury.
nksfor5junk
Tim Bynum 1
This has all been cleared up. The 4 missing trasnferred over to the 4 that were reported dead. All accounted for. They are in the process of removing parts of the building to get to the dead, while preserving the scene for investigators.
PFisherdo
Philip Fisher 2
It was a King air that lost an engine on take-off. I guess it's my distorted Cessna-driver's perspective, but I don't think of a King Air as being a "Small Plane" as they described it in this article.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Well, it's in the small plane category as far as say an RJ would go, and they are designed to fly on 1 just like the next guy. It is not the fact that he lost one on takeoff. Afterwards is what will be interesting.
ynotssor
ynot ssor 1
Philip Fisher stated "... but I don't think of a King Air as being a "Small Plane" as they described it in this article"

< 12,500 lb. is a small plane. The B200 is Empty Weight Max. 11,000 lb..
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
I believe you're confusing it with the King Air 350 which requires a type rating. The 200 does not.
preacher1
preacher1 0
I doubt that type rating or weight will make any difference to the non flying public or media.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
Quit pouring water on my mud, said the stick! ;-)

I made the mistake of assuming the author of that comment understood the issue of weights and accompanying requirements.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 2
What's the exact zulu time it went down?
Darryl80
Darryl White 1
Approximately 15:30 Zulu.
mjlewis
Michael Lewis 3
This plane just sold from Hawker-Beech to another dealer broker. The ad for sale is on Controller. It just completed a fresh Phase 1-4 inspection and prop overhauls. Someone in maintenance is going to get questioned. But also, the weather couldn't have been a factor, was it that hard to control an engine out when I'm sure they've trained many times for it?
preacher1
preacher1 0
It was destined for Mena AR to get overhaul there.
Mustang24
Charles Gordon 1
I think they just do painting in Mena AR
preacher1
preacher1 1
At least that's what the local news is saying here. It may have just been sold down here if it had that mx work done there. You are right in that mx will get questioned.
atreznik
atreznik -5
Is MX ever not investigated? Your homework for tonight is to find me one example where the FAA said "Nahhh, we take your word for it and decline any offer to look into the MX records."
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
Given the statistic that about every year 85-87% of accidents are pilot error...

Well, you get the idea.

No, I am not saying is the case in this particular event. There is nothing to suggest anything in that direction. But odds are not good given it just came out of heavy maintenance. It would not be the first accident where test flights proved successful only to later crash as a result of maintenance issues.
bizjets101
biz jets 2
Very sorry for those involved and their families - but relieved my buddy went to KMCO due to nicer weather instead of KICT. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1PP5GgIQAAx3Qp.png
atreznik
atreznik -8
Isn't he in the sim? Why does the weather matter? I guess for some people recurrent = golf / disney vacation instead of actual work.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 3
I don't always walk from the hotel to the sim.,but when I do, I like to walk in 80 degree weather instead of 40 degree weather...
davidrbarnes
David Barnes 1
What's wrong with adding a few days of leisure onto a few days of sim time?
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
BHerzog
BHerzog 1
We were just at this training facility earlier this month and I was scheduled to go back on another airplane next month. My thoughts and prayers go out to the families and friends in that building today. This is certainly going to be a wound in the Cessna Citation family for a long time.
CaptBmckay
CaptBmckay 1
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
I am sure this is going to be two-in-one inquiry. Involving norms related to flying safety and the post crash building safety .
Ask for one and get two instead , but here the unwelcome kind .
Connorg
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

King Air Crashes into Wichita FlightSafety Building(confirmation)

KSN TV News is reporting that a Beechcraft King Air crashed into one of the FlightSafety International buildings on Wichita’s Mid-Continent Airport this morning. It is also reporting that the airplane lost an engine on takeoff and that two people died and two were injured in the crash. The FlightSafety building that was hit is near the middle of...

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/King-Air-Crashes-into-Wichita-FlightSafety-Building223016-1.html
CherylLoy
Cheryl Loy 1
Local news says only one person on the aircraft
flitesafe
Sorry for the people who lost their life in the accident . And for sure Human factor will be the cause to study in Maintanence , single pilot operation and Training !
ChrisTrott
Chris Trott 1
Sad to hear about this today. Always sucks to see an airplane go down, especially into a building. To add-on to Citation's comment, I suspect the building itself will yield a lot of information as well as the impact is pretty clearly recorded in the corner it impacted on. I only hope for a quick recovery for those who survived. I know we'll find out what happened soon enough.
wakechaserphoto
Very,very sad.As mike SUT said simulaters are for saving lives.thoughts and prayers to the families of those involved.
dixiepilot
dixiepilot 1
It crashed about 10:30 am this morning
Franklcor
Frank Zelinka 1
As an answer to a couple of comments on my post about the rudder gust lock being installed: the aircraft will taxi but will be very heavy on the brakes and need a lot of differential thrust to turn, but it isn't a lot more than is usually necessary. I have seen this happen on 200's when underway with a tug - the nose wheel turns but the rudder doesn't. My second theory would be that since it is just out of maint. someone may have left a rigging pin in the rudder. Either of these will cause you to have no rudder control whatsoever.
ctworley
Tim Worley 1
The articles I've read about this say the pilot was a retired air traffic controller, transitioning to a professional pilot career. That's good for him, I appreciate his motivation.

The question in my mind is, since he recently retired from ATC, how much experience as PIC did he have? The articles mention he was a contract pilot, which in my mind says he probably flew multiple types of aircraft. How proficient was he in a King Air?

I'm venturing a guess when I say, he likely initiated a turn to the left, toward the inoperative engine, too soon. He should have climbed straight ahead to a safe altitude before maneuvering.

God bless this poor man and his family.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
We'll find out with the preliminary in about a month. I caught something in one of the reports he had a good amount of experience but it had no solid experience numbers.

However, any amount of experience can be proven worthless when there is an event where a 20,000 hour ATP and current 121 pilot dies in a 152 on a hot day off a short runway. Yep, that actually happen. There was a current flight instructor on board, too.
preacher1
preacher1 0
I heard the same about his experience.

[This poster has been suspended.]

davidrbarnes
David Barnes 1
Perhaps less so for aircraft equipped with FDR, but any evidence should get reviewed for (a) reliability, (b) relevance, and (c) usability.
WigzellRM
Ralph Wigzell 1
Sad news. R.I.P. I think it will be difficult to determine exactly why he lost it. No flight recorders. Maybe a security camera caught it on tape.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
Other Questions, first...

Was one engine lost or both? We won't know that until the preliminary in a month.

They'll be able to figure out which engines were not under power and to some extent, how much torque was on the propeller. They'll look at fuel flow and ignition. I'll bet the actual cause of power loss is pretty simple. In terms of actual operation, a turbine engine is no more complicated than a four-cycle lawnmower engine.

The next questions are how the plane ended up at the actual crash scene. At low altitude, low speed maneuvering flight, stall is imminent with little to know control surface authority.

The plane made a fairly tight turn from 1Right back into the building. I'd think a little wider turn with the least bank toward 19Left would be desired. That leads me to think it stalled and spun to the left going into the building.
atreznik
atreznik 1
Yes, we all know low speed (actually high AOA) brings about the stall. Not sure what you mean buy little control authority - many aircraft have great slow flight characteristics. You don't think he had enough elevator authority to decrease AOA and increase speed? I don't think that's a safe bet.

But was it stall or loss of control? A stall actually would've saved his bacon but if he got to slow before stalling then it's game over.

For the conditions of that day, was Vmc higher than Vs or Vs higher than Vmc? and thus, was it a stall or loss of control? Those are real questions.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 2
I was referring to loss of control due to Vmc. Too slow and there is insufficient authority.

The tower's observation will be critical. Either he stalled and spun in or it was a Vmc roll. Something brought him back in tight to the left and into the building.

In my earlier post, I typed "know" when that should have been "no". Oops! I wish there an edit feature in these posts!
WigzellRM
Ralph Wigzell 0
There is a video of a Queen Air spinning in after an engine out on You Tube. It shows how mishandling can have dire consequences. Not saying this was the case here, that is for the NTSB to determine.
atreznik
atreznik -5
"in terms of actual operation" You mean suck squeeze bang blow? WTF?

Yeah, your Dad's King Air and your Mom's Snapper are both flammable liquid powered internal combustion toys, but the turbine is several times more reliable than the lawn mower. I'd bet on the Jaguars winning the superbowl before I bet that both engines failed within seconds of each other. If they did, it's likely due to fuel starvation (pilot error).

Let's wait & see before we cast blame but I think he fixated on an easy engine-out and forgot rule #1, add in the IFR factor (he probably has 4.3 hrs actual in the last 20 years) and next thing you know he's slow and in he goes.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 3
Isn't that what you're doing, casting the blame???
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
Actually, the turbine is increbibly more simple. Fewer moving parts against each other!

Just as with my little Toro lawn mower, lost of engine power for mechanical reason are almost always either fuel or ignition. It's that simple. If both engines failed, it's more likely fuel. Sure, throttles rolling back due to a friction lock issue can cause the same. But I'm not going there yet as that puts the blame on the pilot and I'm not ready to do so.
preacher1
preacher1 0
Maybe water in the nacelle tanks. Bad simple but it has got more than 1.
bovineone
Jeff Lawson 1
Aircraft appears to be N52SZ -- http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N52SZ
makonyy15
Chris Shumeyko 3
This is it. Declares emergency shortly after takeoff claiming engine failure. You can hear it in the 14:30Z Tower feed archive for KICT over at LiveATC. Takeoff clearance at 17:15 into the tape and emergency declared at 18:35.
HunterTS4
Toby Sharp 1
can you post the link to the atc feed Chris?
pclifton
Philip Clifton 8
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kict/KICT-Twr-Oct-30-2014-1430Z.mp3

~17:10 Takeoff clearance for N52SZ
~18:20 52SZ declares emergency, left engine failure
~21:40 In response to an unclear question from someone on freq, tower simply says "we just lost an aircraft."
971328
Ronald Perkins 2
neillaferty
Neil Laferty 1
The question at 21:40 sounds like "Whats, uh... What's on fire?" Could quite make out the call sign though other than "31."
neillaferty
Neil Laferty 1
*Couldn't quite make out the call sign.
FLACOUY
Hi everybody, third King Air B 200 fatal crash in less than six months, one in Uruguay, one in Argentina & this one. Guess what: all three with ONE PILOT on board. Other than aerodynamic reasons, what do you think about "single pilot" flights ? I found trainings in the SIM are real enough to get confidence in the plane. We all know that most planes can fly straight ahead with the good engine at take off power, up to a safe altitud, like in a " V1 CUT". It sounds like a steep turn trying to get back to the runway ASAP. One more: what about an "inoperative" or "OFF" autofeather system ? If one engine failed, the other one at TOFF power & no autofeather . . . sure is not your best day in a plane.
Serviceman
Gary Hatch 1
Sorry, I'm not a pilot, but isn't there a rule to never turn toward the failed engine? Could this have been a factor?
Champdriver
jim gevay 2
Three King Air crashes in recent months, and all with only 1 pilot on board, how unusual considering that this is certified as a single pilot airplane. What's you point? Single pilot operations are flown all day long all over the world, the vast majority without trouble. Not all planes are required to have 2 pilots like the Airlines.

The gross weight on the 200 is 12500# and even at gross the plane will fly with one engine, provided you fly the correct profile that you did in training. That's full power, flaps up, gear up, prop feathered and climb out at Vyse of 121 kts. Once you do that and everything is under control, there is no problem turning into the dead engine with a shallow bank. You would not make an immediate hard turn to a parallel opposite direction runway. Climb out straight ahead and get some altitude under you before doing anything else.
I ran some performance numbers on what I guessed at the conditions of the day. Even at a gross of 12500# and around 70 degrees at ICT, the plane will climb out at 700 fpm which is a 5.5% climb gradient, all single engine of course. These numbers are from my Flight Safety King Air performance charts. Like I said, you have to fly the engine out TO profile just like in training.
This plane has auto feather and rudder boost, both should be armed before TO, if not, you can still fly the plane and feather the prop yourself, but, you still have to be on top of the situation, that's the key.

The friction lock and rudder lock theory are just total speculation. We may never really know what exactly went on in the cockpit.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
It's not yet known if only one or both engines were lost. That changes everything with regard to how a pilot may react.

If it were only one engine he should have continued a climb straight ahead and only then when stable set up and establish an approach. An immediate turn back makes me believe he lost both engines.
preacher1
preacher1 -1
There is something to that train of thought. ATP former DAL Captain friend of mine has one down in GA. He said engine out on full power gives bad pull to that side, BUT, pulling power back to 75%, as per checklist, does away with that. The investigation will be interesting.
larena77
des quinn -1
Sad thing maybe they need o change rating to TWO pilot ops for all KING AIR
May all R.I.P. for lost Aviation brothers & sisters.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
Might as well do the same for Senecas, Twin-Comanches, Duchess, etc.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
How can you jump to that conclusion when you do not know the facts of the loss of engine power?

Nor, the pilot's actions between loss of power and impact?
larena77
des quinn 1
Well Ken , can you explain what was the cause 1 engine out or two ??.
Pitch up Power up Gear up Dead leg = Dead engine , ident/engine , confirm & shut down as quick as that
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
No more than you can explain why if it was only one engine a competent pilot would make a sudden turn back to the airport when they should be at Vmca climbing to a safe altitude before making a safe return back to the airport on an established approach.

But, we do not know if only one or both were lost. Some of us are jumping ahead to conclusions without the facts.

[This poster has been suspended.]

WigzellRM
Ralph Wigzell 0
You are an idiot spammer.
joelwiley
joel wiley 0
Make that 'were'.
sparkie624
sparkie624 0
Please don't reply to spammers, just report them... When FA delets them, it will tag your message to someone elses and makes everyone else wonder what happened.
WigzellRM
Ralph Wigzell 1
I was hoping they would delete the comment at the same time :)
preacher1
preacher1 0
They won't. Just hit report under the post.
Franklcor
Frank Zelinka -2
My WAG on this is that the rudder contron lock pin, located under the left seat was not removed. If installed without the attendent chains to the throttle quadrant block and the pin for the control yoke just tucked under the seat to get them out of the way, the guy would have perhaps missed them and he would have no rudder - you would not have much time to figure that out on TO.
WigzellRM
Ralph Wigzell 1
How would he taxi?
preacher1
preacher1 0
or turn in the air
cwc1155
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

2 dead 5 injured Wichita plane crash

Plane circling back to land crashes into building at ICT.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/people-stuck-airport-building-plane-crash/story?id=26574248
NickFlightX
NickFlightX -2
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Flames, smoke after small plane crash in Kansas

WICHITA, Kan. (AP) — A small plane that reported losing engine power has crashed into a building at a Kansas airport, sending up huge plumes of black smoke that can be seen for miles around the city. Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Tony Molinaro says a twin-engine Beechcraft King Air reported the trouble just after takeoff from Wichita's Mid-Continent Airport on Thursday morning.

http://news.yahoo.com/crews-respond-rising-smoke-wichita-airport-152038929.html?clear=cache
josephvelardo
Joseph Velardo -3
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Kingair Crash into FlightSafety Building

Appears that a Kingair with 10 people onboard has crashed into the Flightsafety building in Wichita, KA.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/nicolasmedinamora/plane-crashes-into-wichita-airport-building
gppilot
N. C. -2
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

King Air Crashes at Witchita Mid-Continent

aircraft lost power, 2 fatalities reported inside the building the aircraft creashed into...

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/possible-plane-crash-near-wichita-kansas-airport/
bassam
bassam -2
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Four Dead in King Air Crash

A Beechcraft King Air crashed into the FlightSafety Citation Learning Center at Wichita Mid-Continent Airport this morning, killing four people inside the building and injuring at least five others.


R

http://www.flyingmag.com/technique/accidents/four-dead-king-air-crash-flightsafety-wichita-learning-center?cmpid=enews103014&spPodID=030&spMailingID=21639773&spUserID=NDc4NjE4Njk3NAS2&spJobID=422613793&spReportId=NDIyNjEzNzkzS0
sparkie624
sparkie624 -1
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Plane crash at Kansas airport

A plane has crashed into a flight safety building at the Mid-Continent Airport in Wichita, Kansas.

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2014/10/30/ath-plane-crash-at-kansas-airport.ksnw.html

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